TheGoalNet Posted June 30, 2018 Author Share Posted June 30, 2018 3 hours ago, SnackDubs said: You also can deny the resemblance between the Premier 1 graphic and SLR graphic. Flip the slr graphic upside down and it’s almost spot on. History repeating itself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoalNet Posted June 30, 2018 Author Share Posted June 30, 2018 5 hours ago, Puckducker said: I think another issue, specifically regarding NHL mask paint jobs, is that they are one of the primary pieces of marketing the NHL uses to promote goalies. Marketing players are often about showing off gear. Especially with goalies, and especially with the masks. As a young, impressionable goalie growing up around Toronto in the early 90's, Felix Potvin was a hero to me. And that mask was a huge piece in marketing Potvin, and definitely left an impression of "Wow, I want to be just like Felix Potvin when I grow up". I emulated Potvin's style, I got gear that looked as close to his stuff as possible. But the dream was to one day have the same mask as him. So once I was old enough to afford a custom paint job, of course the first thing I wanted to do was fulfill that childhood dream. I'm curious what (if any) arrangement there is with mask artists have with their designs being so heavily used in NHL marketing. Because for Potvin, I'd say that the mask design was much more iconic of his "brand" than the heavily tradmarked and protected Toronto Maple Leaf logo. @Don Straus able to share anything about the marketing angle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRobles71 Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 This was a really intriguing thread to read. As someone who's been really dead set on basing my paint job off a pre-existing one (Al Montoya's design from his days in Winnipeg), it really has me thinking about whether its still a good idea. Personally I think that I would be able to make enough changes to the design to really make it personal, especially in the color scheme, but Im definitely on the fence about it now. Also, this is probably one of the most civil debates I've seen on the internet ever and it's incredible haha. Not used to people being able to debate for as long as this thread is and not get completely out of hand. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Straus Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 12 hours ago, TheGoalNet said: @Don Straus able to share anything about the marketing angle? I can only assume it has changed a heck of a lot in the last 25-30 years, even in the past 15 years since my departure. Back in the early 90s, when the mask art craze was kicking into gear, the Pinnacle trading card folks saw a value in the art, and knew right from the start, that they had to recognize and compensate the artists for their work, for a 6 card chase set, for that year's card collection. That relationship went on very well, for a number of years. There were a couple of sizes of miniature, anatomically correct masks that they, and EA Sports were involved with, that also required the artists' participation, and we were compensated for that as well. There were those types of deals that continued throughout most of the 90s (EA Sports '94, McDonalds, etc) and everyone was well respected, appreciated the cooperation, and seemed happy. Then, along came one trading card company decided to be a little greasy, and put out a mask chase set of their own, without the cooperation, nor the compensation. It got pretty ugly, ended up in the courts, was settled to our satisfaction, and that's when shit hit the fan. Remember when getting ahold of a game used mask or jersey was something special - well, even more special than it is today? It was (coincidently?) around that time, that someone further up the food chain (seeing the opportunity to harvest a few $$) tried to grab ahold of this area and put holograms on everything, calling it an 'official collectable'. It was around that time also, that I stepped away from hockey, and lost touch with the process. I've only heard rumours about the chain of custody now. Who is allowed to paint? What is allowed to be painted? Who has/had/signed away the copyright? I'm not sure. One thing I am sure of, is if there's even a whiff of $$, it'll cause a feeding frenzy, usually with those who had nothing to do with the process/design/finished product, being the first ones with their face in the trough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnackDubs Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 14 hours ago, TheGoalNet said: History repeating itself? Graphics are getting repetitive. Even e flex 4s look like genetic 3. Bauer has the right idea with digital graphics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoalNet Posted June 30, 2018 Author Share Posted June 30, 2018 On 6/30/2018 at 12:05 AM, JRobles71 said: This was a really intriguing thread to read. As someone who's been really dead set on basing my paint job off a pre-existing one (Al Montoya's design from his days in Winnipeg), it really has me thinking about whether its still a good idea. Personally I think that I would be able to make enough changes to the design to really make it personal, especially in the color scheme, but Im definitely on the fence about it now. Also, this is probably one of the most civil debates I've seen on the internet ever and it's incredible haha. Not used to people being able to debate for as long as this thread is and not get completely out of hand. I’m glad! Great point about intelligence with our debate 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoalieCustomizer Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 16 hours ago, JRobles71 said: This was a really intriguing thread to read. As someone who's been really dead set on basing my paint job off a pre-existing one (Al Montoya's design from his days in Winnipeg), it really has me thinking about whether its still a good idea. Personally I think that I would be able to make enough changes to the design to really make it personal, especially in the color scheme, but Im definitely on the fence about it now. Also, this is probably one of the most civil debates I've seen on the internet ever and it's incredible haha. Not used to people being able to debate for as long as this thread is and not get completely out of hand. Considering Montoya's design in Winnipeg is a design that's essentially taken from the nose of vintage airplanes, I'd say it's fine. Even better if it's a different take and different style, but still, it's a design lifted from somewhere else already. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanG Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 19 hours ago, TheGoalNet said: My understanding is that Bauer owns any patents and copyrights for the designs. However, moving vent holes a few MMS, changing the center bar style, etc etc is a loop for the legal system. It’d be an incredibly difficult and expense battle for Bauer without a gaurenteed victory. That’s another good point. People can change minor details and claim it’s not patent infringement. I understand the perspective of not buying clones, especially blatant rip-offs, but for me I’m still ok with certain ones. One other thing that this made me think about was whether Harrison ever considered Warwick, Eddy, and other masks of very similar design as infringing on his design. Like others have mentioned, they could be considered clones because of how similar they look. That’s another reason why I’m ok with certain masks looking like other ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoalNet Posted July 1, 2018 Author Share Posted July 1, 2018 4 hours ago, TitanG said: That’s another good point. People can change minor details and claim it’s not patent infringement. I understand the perspective of not buying clones, especially blatant rip-offs, but for me I’m still ok with certain ones. One other thing that this made me think about was whether Harrison ever considered Warwick, Eddy, and other masks of very similar design as infringing on his design. Like others have mentioned, they could be considered clones because of how similar they look. That’s another reason why I’m ok with certain masks looking like other ones. I might be wrong, but I think Harrison actually trained some people and helped them get started Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanG Posted July 1, 2018 Share Posted July 1, 2018 2 hours ago, TheGoalNet said: I might be wrong, but I think Harrison actually trained some people and helped them get started That doesn’t surprise me in the least considering that he worked with Tony from Sportmask a couple of years ago. I don’t recall ever hearing a connecting between Harrison and Warwick, but I could be wrong. Also don’t know about Eddy. Either way, as long as everyone is getting their fair due and we as goalies get a good, protective mask at a fair price, I think some inspiration here and there is alright. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CG35 Posted July 1, 2018 Share Posted July 1, 2018 As a Bruins fan I found this one interesting... Manny Fernandez inspired by Andy Moog... doesn’t get much closer than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoalNet Posted July 1, 2018 Author Share Posted July 1, 2018 5 hours ago, CG35 said: As a Bruins fan I found this one interesting... Manny Fernandez inspired by Andy Moog... doesn’t get much closer than that. Fernandez mask is his wild mask in Bruins colors. I can see you thoughts on the similarities though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CG35 Posted July 1, 2018 Share Posted July 1, 2018 Oops... Right you are... came across that photo this morning and couldn’t believe how similar they both were... plus both wearing 35. Definitely original from his Wild days... looked better in that color scheme too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunnyman666 Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 (edited) I have heard more than a few shady stories about Greg Harrison taking deposits with no mask in exchange and thusly keeping the money; should that not negate his indignance about people copying his artwork? Wouldn’t taking deposits with no mask be theft in the same if not more egregious way as stealing a paint job? Edited July 2, 2018 by bunnyman666 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CG35 Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 I just paid a non-refundable deposit to start design on my mask for paint this fall... if we don’t see eye-to-eye I won’t get that money back as it pays for the time the artist invests to deal with me instead of another customer... are we talking this scenario..? Or taking money and then just ending all communication... cause that would be pretty shady. Hopefully those stories are just stories... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunnyman666 Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 3 minutes ago, CG35 said: I just paid a non-refundable deposit to start design on my mask for paint this fall... if we don’t see eye-to-eye I won’t get that money back as it pays for the time the artist invests to deal with me instead of another customer... are we talking this scenario..? Or taking money and then just ending all communication... cause that would be pretty shady. Hopefully those stories are just stories... Oh no- we’re talking about taking a deposit for a mask and not hearing hyde nor hair from Harrison ever again. I read about several stories on the vintage mask forum and someone reminded me that Harrison’s reputation is as shady as a 600 year old redwood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CG35 Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 7 minutes ago, bunnyman666 said: Oh no- we’re talking about taking a deposit for a mask and not hearing hyde nor hair from Harrison ever again. I read about several stories on the vintage mask forum and someone reminded me that Harrison’s reputation is as shady as a 600 year old redwood. If truth be told, that is grim... I would never wish that experience on anyone. I don’t know if two wrongs still make a right in this situation though... it’s almost like asking if Pete Rose belongs in the HOF... all sorts of opinions start flying. I’ll need to think on that one a bit, but I’m leaning toward the personal indescretions still don’t outweigh the artists right to have their original creations protected... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ULTIMA Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 2 hours ago, bunnyman666 said: I have heard more than a few shady stories about Greg Harrison taking deposits with no mask in exchange and thusly keeping the money; should that not negate his indignance about people copying his artwork? Wouldn’t taking deposits with no mask be theft in the same if not more egregious way as stealing a paint job? Doesn't sound like Greg at all. Source? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunnyman666 Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, ULTIMA said: Doesn't sound like Greg at all. Source? More than one. I read about it first on the vintage goalie mask forum, but then other people have said this over the years, as well. I never spoke to anyone who has personally had this happen, but I have read stories about this in more than one place. If this is a conspiracy where a bunch of people decided to smear this guy, that would be absolutely terrible. And to address @CG35 Two wrongs don’t make a right; however, from more than a couple of stories of customers getting ripped off, one should not complain about their artwork getting ripped off. Edited July 2, 2018 by bunnyman666 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoalNet Posted July 2, 2018 Author Share Posted July 2, 2018 12 hours ago, bunnyman666 said: Oh no- we’re talking about taking a deposit for a mask and not hearing hyde nor hair from Harrison ever again. I read about several stories on the vintage mask forum and someone reminded me that Harrison’s reputation is as shady as a 600 year old redwood. IF (AGAIN IF) that is true, that's terrible. That's definitely stealing, but a whole different discussion that copyrights. That would fall more in line with "people not to do with business with" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CG35 Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 I don’t know... If this is all accurate then I don’t really see why you would want to support that artists legacy by doing things the right way or wrong. If anything it would be more incentive to just move on to someone or something else untarnished. In the larger scheme of things there have been many artists/inventors/chemists, etc that have created brilliant intellectual properties, if we start cherry picking who’s creations to protect based on personalities then the slope is gonna get pretty slippery. I liked Andy Moog, so I wear 35 whenever possible, but I would never put the Bruin on my mask... that’s a reflection of Andy... my mask will reflect a small piece of me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunnyman666 Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, TheGoalNet said: IF (AGAIN IF) that is true, that's terrible. That's definitely stealing, but a whole different discussion that copyrights. That would fall more in line with "people not to do with business with" Most certainly. I hope that it isn’t; I first heard about it on the vintage mask forum... It’s just that you’re a Hippo name Cryte if you’re yelling about people stealing your intellectual property if you, yourself are stealing from customers. Edited July 2, 2018 by bunnyman666 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoalNet Posted July 2, 2018 Author Share Posted July 2, 2018 @Chenner29 with the eyes on this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doobiesnax Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 50 minutes ago, TheGoalNet said: @Chenner29 with the eyes on this I was just going to post this hahahahaha..... that escalated quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 21 hours ago, bunnyman666 said: I have heard more than a few shady stories about Greg Harrison taking deposits with no mask in exchange and thusly keeping the money I've come across more than a handful claims like these. Deposit accepted and no mask delivered or taking years to deliver and requiring constant hounding. I also believe Pros Choice was started because Dom had a really negative experience trying to get a mask made by Greg when he was young and decided just to make his own mask. You also have to keep in mind that Gregs first NHL masks here almost exact Higgins clones. Doesn't make others copying his stuff right, but it kind makes it hard to feel bad for him. There is other stuff he did that was already brought up in this thread that I'm not going to drag back up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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