To Profile or Not To Profile...

[dstew29]

Couldn’t find a specific thread on goalie steel profiling so here it is I guess.

First, let me say I’ve never had my blades profiled, but the more I read up on it the more intrigued I get.

I’ll get right into it. The big questions I have are:

1. What are the two are three best (in theory at least) profiles for goalie steel? I’ve seen a few references to profiles called SAM, WIN, Zuperior V, Detroit 2, Single Radius (25-30 ft), etc.

2. Having never tried anything but stock steel, how would one decide on which profile is best?

3. What’s the typical stock goalie steel profile for the big brands?

4. What’s the best method to check my current steel profile/radius?

I’ve read that No Icing Sports in NH has a mail order profiling program which is cool and potentially solves the “who” and “how”, but doesn’t solve the what or why questions which come first.

[DL42]

1 & 2)just stick to noicing if u r in the states, fill out the questionnaire and he'll use that to factor in what u should get. the reference profile is just marketing to sell the jig to the pieces u could just say what you want.  most goalies have a a combo profile of radius and  or cag.  you do this to get the blade shape you want regardless of skate blade brand.  its all about balance and mobility.

3. stock is 30' steep and tydan, massive is 50', mfg might now alway be perfect and that is like a blank clay asking to be molded.

4. just go with noicing

5. send it in to professionals, random places butcher the skates, get multiple pairs of blades.

[Chenner29]

1 hour ago, dstew29 said:

Couldn’t find a specific thread on goalie steel profiling so here it is I guess.

First, let me say I’ve never had my blades profiled, but the more I read up on it the more intrigued I get.

I’ll get right into it. The big questions I have are:

1. What are the two are three best (in theory at least) profiles for goalie steel? I’ve seen a few references to profiles called SAM, WIN, Zuperior V, Detroit 2, Single Radius (25-30 ft), etc.

2. Having never tried anything but stock steel, how would one decide on which profile is best?

3. What’s the typical stock goalie steel profile for the big brands?

4. What’s the best method to check my current steel profile/radius?

I’ve read that No Icing Sports in NH has a mail order profiling program which is cool and potentially solves the “who” and “how”, but doesn’t solve the what or why questions which come first.

First of all, like glove breaks and stick patterns, there is no single “best profile.”  It depends on what you want and how you play. 

Personally I am on a 27/30’ dual radius with aggressive forward pitch. I wanted a profile to put me on the balls of my feet and a shorter front radius for easy pivots and agility. I use a longer 30’ back radius for stability on my backside recoveries (or pushes while down). 

Some goalies like flat, some old models came with 120’.  Most these days run between 30’ and 50’. 

There honestly is no real good way for you to evaluate the radius on your steel. You could have a 34’ on your left skate and a 26’ on your right. Who knows.

My suggestion is to go on NoIcingSports.com, read everything and get a customer form to fill out. Bob makes it super easy and gives you a free re-do if you don’t like the first profile. 

[Aquilzz]

Profiling makes a huge difference! Not only to benefit personal preference and play-style, but it also creates a consistent surface on both skates.

A "radius" is pretty much a term to describe the turning aggressiveness of the blade. So for example, the longer the radius, the bigger the circle is required. That's why you'll see profiles described as 20' (20 foot). 

A single radius is a consistent radius across the blade (i.e. 24', 28' 30' etc).
A dual radius will be shorter in the front, and longer in the back (i.e. 22'-28' radius).
Triple is the same as dual, just across three sections.

Off by heart, I know "Detroit 2" is a shorter dual radius (I think 18'-24'), and the Win 2 is similar to Detroit 2, just slightly larger numbers. SAM is my personal choice for profiling. It's a triple radius with a super aggressive 10' at the front and a stable 50' at the back. 

As per your questions:

1) There is no "best" profile, it all depends on personal preference. Are you a more mobile goalie? A shorter radius will benefit you. Do you lack stability? A longer radius will benefit you. The higher you go, you lose agility while you gain stability. I do recommend going with at least some sort of dual radius (shorter in the front, longer in the back) to get the best of both worlds. 

2) Experimentation! Too bad we don't get free profilings and blades. But if you follow my advice above about agility/mobility versus stability, you should find some sort of idea. It's also important to know your play style.

3) Blades aren't profiled from the stock brands (not sure about third parties), so they are not always consistent. 

4) If you have a trusted Pro Shop, they will have a tool to check the radius. 
 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Aquilzz

[CG35]

This is a link to the ProSharp profiling guide... Here. It should explain most available options.

Personally, I have (4) sets of Step Steel standard blades profiled to SAM 10’-50”-27’ and sharpened with A-Trap... I like it.

Have a read and see what suits your style... looks like Chenner29 has provided a great option in No Icing Sports

[DL42]

2 hours ago, Aquilzz said:

.... SAM is my personal choice for profiling. It's a triple radius with a super aggressive 10' at the front and a stable 50' at the back....

SAM is technically not a triple radius, its  10' radius in the front, 27' radius in the back, and 50 mm flat in the middle of the blade.

If you want non-slipout push use CAG, it puts a flat spot in the middle of the blade so you have more contact when pushing, complete opposite of single radius in the middle of the blade.

Most shops don't tell you this because they don't have CAG machine or machine that can put flat spot only radius on blade.

[dstew29]

10 hours ago, Chenner29 said:

First of all, like glove breaks and stick patterns, there is no single “best profile.”  It depends on what you want and how you play. 

Thanks, and yes I get what you're saying but that's why I tried to highlight "in theory". Most people in stock blades have absolutely no reference point to even begin to figure out what they don't like about their current blades, let alone decide on what they might like about other profiles. To your point, the best option would be to try all those different profile options to see what suits your game best. This really isn't feasible for most beer leaguers but it is what it is.

If most stock blades are poorly profiled and/or mismatched profiles, it's shocking that after market steel companies wouldn't market their blades with the "profiling is better than stock" angle. And really educate the market on its benefits, etc. Would seem to me to be the better sell than just "buy my steel, your edge will last longer".

[old but slow]

4 minutes ago, dstew29 said:

Thanks, and yes I get what you're saying but that's why I tried to highlight "in theory". Most people in stock blades have absolutely no reference point to even begin to figure out what they don't like about their current blades, let alone decide on what they might like about other profiles. To your point, the best option would be to try all those different profile options to see what suits your game best. This really isn't feasible for most beer leaguers but it is what it is.

If most stock blades are poorly profiled and/or mismatched profiles, it's shocking that after market steel companies wouldn't market their blades with the "profiling is better than stock" angle. And really educate the market on its benefits, etc. Would seem to me to be the better sell than just "buy my steel, your edge will last longer".

This is irrelevant as almost all steel is removable these days and it can all be profiled, in the skate or not. Most major retailers that sharpen also have the ability to profile at the time of first sharpening, they just don't want to cause it's time consuming and most consumers just don't know the difference. For the more avid players in my area, retailers will ask if we want them to do the first sharpening or if we are taking them to Bob at No Icing.

To your other comments, the best option for most beer leaguers would be to fill out the questionnaire from No Icing and buy a second set of steel with Bob's recommended profile. If you don't like it, put the stock steel back on and return the profiled steel (with thoughts and comments) to No Icing for a different profile. Bob is awesome! He is a goalie (retired from net due to health within the past 5 years). He kinda geeks out on the advantages and disadvantages of sharpenings and profiles. He used to (and still might) test out all of the options for both player and goalie. He's also spent countless hours experimenting. In short, he knows his craft.

[dstew29]

@TheGoalNet Just throwing this out there as an idea, but what about partnering with a Step or Tydan and say No Icing Sports to send you a handful of runnners that you get profiled and test out? I think something like that would be hugely beneficial to the steel companies and No Icing while at the same time demystifying the process of selecting a profile to try first.

Rather than coming to a conclusion on which blade is best for the "subject", I think there could be huge benefits from objective feedback relating to each profile that they demo'd (i.e "the SAM profile felt best all around because it helped me ...", or "the dual radius was best for backside pushes and butterfly pushes", etc.). Questionnaires are a good start but real world feedback would be very interesting to see in this case.

[dstew29]

7 minutes ago, old but slow said:

This is irrelevant as almost all steel is removable these days and it can all be profiled, in the skate or not. Most major retailers that sharpen also have the ability to profile at the time of first sharpening, they just don't want to cause it's time consuming and most consumers just don't know the difference. For the more avid players in my area, retailers will ask if we want them to do the first sharpening or if we are taking them to Bob at No Icing.

To your other comments, the best option for most beer leaguers would be to fill out the questionnaire from No Icing and buy a second set of steel with Bob's recommended profile. If you don't like it, put the stock steel back on and return the profiled steel (with thoughts and comments) to No Icing for a different profile. Bob is awesome! He is a goalie (retired from net due to health within the past 5 years). He kinda geeks out on the advantages and disadvantages of sharpenings and profiles. He used to (and still might) test out all of the options for both player and goalie. He's also spent countless hours experimenting. In short, he knows his craft.

Thanks, I'll most likely end up sending to Bob at No Icing since no one in my area really has the capabilities like a No Icing.

Per my last post though, I think it would be hugely beneficial to get a real world test of a few different profiles that are widely used. Just to hit the high notes / benefits of each and get a good context for what changes you might expect. Maybe that's just me talking but I'd guess most recreational goalies don't get profiled blades because they know little to nothing about it.

[old but slow]

Shoot an email to No Icing with your questions/ concerns. Bob really isn't just looking to make sales, he doesn't need to. He has already done "real world" extensive testing and experimenting, that's why he has a questionnaire. 

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see reviews on profiles and hollows. I don't believe they would be very helpful as everyone skates differently. Check out the on ice video thread. A 18',30' dual radius would work very differently for @Imperative vs @Hockey School Dropout vs @Punisher Goalie vs @Fullright. They all skate well but not the same. If @Chenner29 and @CG35 were to switch profiles, you would probably get very different feedback about each and neither would likely be helpful to you or me.

And to add to the confusion about all this, most human skate sharpeners inadvertently change your profile with each sharpening. @Chenner29 may have started with a 27'/30 but might be currently skating on a 33'/40 or a 20'/27 (these are exaggerations but it happens). 

Bottom line try it out with a professionals recommendation, pay attention and take notes on feel, performance, likes/dislikes and adjust as needed.

[DL42]

2 hours ago, old but slow said:

....And to add to the confusion about all this, most human skate sharpeners inadvertently change your profile with each sharpening. @Chenner29 may have started with a 27'/30 but might be currently skating on a 33'/40 or a 20'/27 (these are exaggerations but it happens). 

...

That's why u only let noicing or a real professional sharpen the skates so they don't butcher the profile and they last longer.  At 6-7 $ per sharpening its way cheaper to mail couple pairs to noicing  then pay local 10$ to butcher and screw it up.  even with the 14 $ 2 way return shipping, its still chepear overall

[Aquilzz]

13 hours ago, DL42 said:

SAM is technically not a triple radius, its  10' radius in the front, 27' radius in the back, and 50 mm flat in the middle of the blade.

If you want non-slipout push use CAG, it puts a flat spot in the middle of the blade so you have more contact when pushing, complete opposite of single radius in the middle of the blade.

Most shops don't tell you this because they don't have CAG machine or machine that can put flat spot only radius on blade.

You're probably right, it's just ProSharp's catalog describes it as a triple.

[Punisher Goalie]

I went from stock steel in my Trues to the SAM profile done by No Icing. Absolutely notice an immediate improvement in mobility for turns/T-pushes/quick movements on my feet. Did not really notice much of a change on backside pushes, but that’s probably because my technique is crap. 

[Fullright]

8 hours ago, old but slow said:

Shoot an email to No Icing with your questions/ concerns. Bob really isn't just looking to make sales, he doesn't need to. He has already done "real world" extensive testing and experimenting, that's why he has a questionnaire. 

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see reviews on profiles and hollows. I don't believe they would be very helpful as everyone skates differently. Check out the on ice video thread. A 18',30' dual radius would work very differently for @Imperative vs @Hockey School Dropout vs @Punisher Goalie vs @Fullright. They all skate well but not the same. If @Chenner29 and @CG35 were to switch profiles, you would probably get very different feedback about each and neither would likely be helpful to you or me.

And to add to the confusion about all this, most human skate sharpeners inadvertently change your profile with each sharpening. @Chenner29 may have started with a 27'/30 but might be currently skating on a 33'/40 or a 20'/27 (these are exaggerations but it happens). 

Bottom line try it out with a professionals recommendation, pay attention and take notes on feel, performance, likes/dislikes and adjust as needed.

OMG, I am the worst example ever for this issue. I still use a flat ground sharpening and I get them done about once a year by the same guy who did them when I was in my teens and 20s and I'm 55 now. The guy who sharpens them is in his 70s. I have no idea what all of this means as to different radii and profiles. Thanks for the complement and you're point is well taken. Just have to find what works you.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Fullright

[dstew29]

On 11/13/2018 at 11:49 AM, old but slow said:

Shoot an email to No Icing with your questions/ concerns. Bob really isn't just looking to make sales, he doesn't need to. He has already done "real world" extensive testing and experimenting, that's why he has a questionnaire. 

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see reviews on profiles and hollows. I don't believe they would be very helpful as everyone skates differently. Check out the on ice video thread. A 18',30' dual radius would work very differently for @Imperative vs @Hockey School Dropout vs @Punisher Goalie vs @Fullright. They all skate well but not the same. If @Chenner29 and @CG35 were to switch profiles, you would probably get very different feedback about each and neither would likely be helpful to you or me.

And to add to the confusion about all this, most human skate sharpeners inadvertently change your profile with each sharpening. @Chenner29 may have started with a 27'/30 but might be currently skating on a 33'/40 or a 20'/27 (these are exaggerations but it happens). 

Bottom line try it out with a professionals recommendation, pay attention and take notes on feel, performance, likes/dislikes and adjust as needed.

Quick update. Ended up arriving at a profile to test after speaking w/ Bob at No Icing. I needed a backup set of steel anyways so I’m getting the new profile on SS Step runners for Graf.

I haven’t been too impressed with the stock Graf runners I’ve been using and def feel like they’re causing some issues for me.

Will report back once I get a chance to play in the new Steps next week.

[dstew29]

Newly profiled step steel arrived today (ordered thurs night- very fast turn!! Big ups to Bob at No Icing). After a quick back and forth via email, Bob recommended a combo radius, 20’/32’ with some forward pitch. Said my 1/2” hollow is a good depth so no change for me there.

Probably wont get to play in it until next week but snapped a few pics for now.

First two pics show new profiled step vs the stock runners. And holy shit! Look at the difference in shape. No wonder I was having serious issues and felt off balance. The old steel looks like a player radius. I did not expect this drastic of a difference and I personally would have never guessed the steel was this rocketed by looking at it.

Third pic is just my new stetup w the step runners. They’re slightly taller than stock as well but not much. Maybe 3-4mm.

[old but slow]

@dstew29, Just curious did you buy the Grafs new, how long have you had them and how often you sharpen them,  what type of machine is used for sharpening?

I wouldn't be surprised if there is a lengthy adjustment period, that is a huge difference between the 2 blades. 

[dstew29]

33 minutes ago, old but slow said:

@dstew29, Just curious did you buy the Grafs new, how long have you had them and how often you sharpen them,  what type of machine is used for sharpening?

I wouldn't be surprised if there is a lengthy adjustment period, that is a huge difference between the 2 blades. 

Bought used from a member here, maybe 6 months ago? Have only had about 6 games/skates with them but it was very clear early on that something was off with the skates or blades. Had this constant feeling of sitting on my heels or falling forward i.e. no balance/stability.

Granted, prior to this year I hadn't played in 15 years so I knew I'd be re-adjusting to new gear/playing hockey again. Hopefully the new setup and profile will be a big improvement. 

[Mac29]

If I remember correctly Graf has always had a more aggressive stock profile on their runners. I want to say it is a 22' profile. I think most other goalie runners come with a 28' or 30' profile. 

I remember reading about Price having issues switching out of the Graf runners because he was used to the more aggressive profile and he felt like he was on skies with the Step Steel. They tried to match the profile to his Grafs. But he ultimately ended up back in the Graf cowling and steel. 

Also, I always notice the toe and heel of Graf runners to be more rounded than any other brand. This likely adds to the shorter blade feeling of the Grafs. 

[old but slow]

37 minutes ago, dstew29 said:

Bought used from a member here, maybe 6 months ago? Have only had about 6 games/skates with them but it was very clear early on that something was off with the skates or blades. Had this constant feeling of sitting on my heels or falling forward i.e. no balance/stability.

Granted, prior to this year I hadn't played in 15 years so I knew I'd be re-adjusting to new gear/playing hockey again. Hopefully the new setup and profile will be a big improvement. 

Makes total sense as the original blades seem to be pitched toward the heel compared to the Step. Should be a night and day difference, doesn't mean it's the right profile for you, but should be a huge difference.

good luck, anxious to hear how it goes.

[Puckstopper]

3 hours ago, dstew29 said:

Bought used from a member here, maybe 6 months ago? Have only had about 6 games/skates with them but it was very clear early on that something was off with the skates or blades. Had this constant feeling of sitting on my heels or falling forward i.e. no balance/stability.

Granted, prior to this year I hadn't played in 15 years so I knew I'd be re-adjusting to new gear/playing hockey again. Hopefully the new setup and profile will be a big improvement. 

Good luck man.  My Step blades that NoIcing set up for me were the best set of steel I've ever had.   I'll be sending my current set of Tydan steel off to NoIcing shortly for a double radius.  The Goalie-Sam profile that Tydan put on the blades for me before shipping just hasn't worked well for me, so I'm looking forward to getting back onto something I know and trust.

[old but slow]

So how is this working out for you?

[dstew29]

1 hour ago, old but slow said:

So how is this working out for you?

I really like the new setup. I feel very balanced out there vs feeling pitched forward or on my heels at times with the old steel. The extra height of the Step was a little adjustment but I’m liking it now. Holding a good edge still too.

now just need to figure out if I should replace the old steel altogether and get a 2nd Step set or just profile the old steel. I don’t think I trust my LHS to sharpen and not mess w the profile.

[dstew29]

On 11/20/2018 at 4:17 PM, Puckstopper said:

Good luck man.  My Step blades that NoIcing set up for me were the best set of steel I've ever had.   I'll be sending my current set of Tydan steel off to NoIcing shortly for a double radius.  The Goalie-Sam profile that Tydan put on the blades for me before shipping just hasn't worked well for me, so I'm looking forward to getting back onto something I know and trust.

Any idea if Tydan makes Graf runners? I’ve only seen for Bauer and True.