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Moose75

RVH under fire lately

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2 hours ago, TheGoalNet said:

Future Pro / Steve McKichan have been all over this. I fully appreciate guys are getting burned on it, but no one seems to abandon it.

I am curious if he is "right" or if not being privy to 1 to 1 conversations, it looks worse than it is. Beniot Allaire tells Hank to play deep in his net. You'd never teach a kid that. It would be easy to watch any goal Hank gets beat for playing too dip and rip on him

I googled him. Wow he's more harsh on this than I am lol. Hard not to be when it's such a frequent mistake at a level it shouldn't be frequent in.

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Jeff da Goalie and I had a private discussion about topics like these at a very different place and I very much like this group/board so rather than inadvertently step on anyone's toes because tone doesn't come through on a web board, I'll just go with Jeff's idea about cats and mice and what others here have said about having different types of screw drivers in the tool box. I will, however, add that whenever a big man (6' or more) gets beat because he made himself smaller than me (5'5"), it is kinda funny if not ironic. Us Jeff Lerg size guys have to stick together :)

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Playing devil's advocate again...

Is there any chance that the RVH is saving 2 shots a game that would be hard saves otherwise? Is the 1 soft goal a month worth the 8 tricky saves it makes easy?

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7 minutes ago, TheGoalNet said:

Playing devil's advocate again...

Is there any chance that the RVH is saving 2 shots a game that would be hard saves otherwise? Is the 1 soft goal a month worth the 8 tricky saves it makes easy?

My perspective is that the VH and RVH (all things being equal, which they are not) provide equal, but opposite results compared to standing up while hugging the post/square to the shooter in normal stance. Now, I am clearly ignoring a host of intangibles and even more scenarios, but the VH and RVH sacrifice general mobility and some higher holes for immediate low-to-ice level coverage. Stand-up/Post Hug/Square to Shooter sacrifices immediate low-to-ice level coverage for few-to-no higher holes and maximum mobility. The only thing that passes the eye test for me is that the position can incorporate one or both techniques with success, but one cannot sustain success if either is abused. 

I do not believe the RVH is saving more shots, nor is it allowing more goals. 

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5 hours ago, BadAngle41 said:

 Personally I find playing a true RVH can be difficult w/ worn pegs. Good hard pushes end up knocking the net off.

Which can also be a tool in your toolbox when your beer league team has a bunch of forwards who don't seem to understand changing BEFORE they're exhausted and slow.   Knowing when I can get an easy whistle is just one of the reasons I always pound my own pegs instead of letting the ref do it.

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3 minutes ago, Puckstopper said:

Which can also be a tool in your toolbox when your beer league team has a bunch of forwards who don't seem to understand changing BEFORE they're exhausted and slow.   Knowing when I can get an easy whistle is just one of the reasons I always pound my own pegs instead of letting the ref do it.

preach, my brother.  even if the ref does it, 200 lbs of goalie crashing into the net at just the right time gets you the whistle.

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5 hours ago, BadAngle41 said:

Personally I find playing a true RVH can be difficult w/ worn pegs. Good hard pushes end up knocking the net off.

I always found this a little odd (kind of unrelated). I am one of the bigger goalie in my league with pads that don't slide as well and I never knock off the post. And yet these little 10u kids with their Vapor 1Xs are knocking the pegs off no problem. I do not understand. Maybe I have a better proportioned push?

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33 minutes ago, ThatCarGuy said:

I always found this a little odd (kind of unrelated). I am one of the bigger goalie in my league with pads that don't slide as well and I never knock off the post. And yet these little 10u kids with their Vapor 1Xs are knocking the pegs off no problem. I do not understand. Maybe I have a better proportioned push?

For one I'd say kids are taught to really lean on the post to seal it up... and that when pushing off the post they're using their skate blade against the post... causing it to be dislodged. I'd guess your skate blade is more in contact with the ice... so when you push you're not doing so against the net itself... which also means your seal maybe isn't as tight against the post. Any of us who are on the over side of 30 (this includes me) and grew up playing goal weren't taught this technique. So most of us employ something in the style of RVH but not it's pure form. No different than someone who says they play Butterfly... the reality is they likely play a style which defaults to a butterfly position but are hardly a purist. I could also be completely wrong... but IMO shallow rink pegs are one of the reasons it's hard to truly perform RVH effectively in any league that doesn't have moorings.

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2 hours ago, TheGoalNet said:

Playing devil's advocate again...

Is there any chance that the RVH is saving 2 shots a game that would be hard saves otherwise? Is the 1 soft goal a month worth the 8 tricky saves it makes easy?

That's an excellent question. Are we missing the bigger picture and focusing only on the ones that go in?

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11 minutes ago, Fullright said:

That's an excellent question. Are we missing the bigger picture and focusing only on the ones that go in?

Of course we're only focusing on the bad.

Remember that weak goal Rinne let in in the 2018 playoffs against Winnipeg? Remember the hubloo about whether skate on post or skate inside the post RVH was the correct technique?

Fluky or bad goals will always showcase the cons of certain save selections but they are being used regularly at the highest level for a reason. 

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7 hours ago, seagoal said:

@Pauly35or00. This thread is just what the Dr. ordered. 

Absolutely! I don't really have anything to contribute because I'm learning but I was pleasantly surprised to see it pop up last night.👍

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I, as a goalie and as a coach, can only say that the SIMPLE reason for the negative feedback on the VH and RVH is improper angles and positioning. You could also add bad timing or cheating on the play, but as Keeks put it long ago and it reflects the issue even to this day, goalies are using it at the wrong moment, ie when the player is still above the goal line. Once he's on it or past it (behind the goal), there is little to no chance for a goal unless it's a deflection or a bad bounce. And do notice that when the goalie is in his RVH, he is more than oft not square to the puck, kind of cheating for the pass or rebound.

Playing the RVH is hard on my knees with the twisted joint and so I prefer using the VH. Doesn't mean I won't do it now and then but more likely on a wraparound.

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4 hours ago, TheGoalNet said:

Playing devil's advocate again...

Is there any chance that the RVH is saving 2 shots a game that would be hard saves otherwise? Is the 1 soft goal a month worth the 8 tricky saves it makes easy?

I would argue that any RVH save outside of the aforementioned wraparound or tight walkouts is a save you've actually made harder for yourself. 

I will concede the beer league argument of if you were already there, it's easier to stay there if you can get away with it than it is to get up and out of the position. :P

But if you've gone there deliberately when you don't need to, that's extra effort you could have saved

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1 hour ago, Fullright said:

That's an excellent question. Are we missing the bigger picture and focusing only on the ones that go in?

I think, like any save or transition into a save, the RVH has its place and is great for that place. However, the ones that go in are pretty bad goals to let it, and it seems like the usage of RVH could have been better, and/or a different save selection entirely. 

I think goalies are retreating back to their posts too soon as a whole due to the blocking game being ingrained into us over reading plays. Meaning we tend to go to generic areas or positions instead of reading what needs to be sealed and where you need to be to do it. In other words, it's not being patient, it's being passive. 

Edited by Moose75
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Every generation has had a save selection that would end up on SportsCenter as a bad goal when it is overused or misapplied.  In my time, I can count:

Butterfly.
Paddle down.
VH.
RVH.

The issue isn't the save selection itself, it is that the goalie is making the first move and using it outside of the proper context (puck outside of stick length with time and space).  It's a wonderful tool for sealing and jam plays around the post.  It's vastly superior to the VH in that you are able to get your gloves down, forward and active in the play, whereas the VH is a static block.

I think the RVH may evolve in some way, similar to the butterfly.  I rarely see guys get burned in the butterfly anymore, because they learned to take vertical space away with a slight forward lean and gloves in front. It could succeed in a way that static blocks like the paddle down and VH did not.  In fact, I can't remember the last time I saw a goalie even execute a PD or VH.

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12 hours ago, Chenner29 said:

Butterfly.
Paddle down.
VH.
RVH.

Christ - I can remember when butterfly was this new fad and they sold pads that had tapered tops to help butterfly.

m3uXFXh1deAe2e8kGlO6uuQ.jpg

I started when Fuhr and all were the preferred way to play. Then went through that phase where short pads allowed you to be faster.

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23 hours ago, TheGoalNet said:

Playing devil's advocate again...

Is there any chance that the RVH is saving 2 shots a game that would be hard saves otherwise? Is the 1 soft goal a month worth the 8 tricky saves it makes easy?

I kind of eluded to this earlier.  I feel like they are playing the percentages with this type of move.  Yeah it looks really bad at times, but you never hear about the saves being made at the door step from being in this position.

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16 hours ago, Chenner29 said:

Every generation has had a save selection that would end up on SportsCenter as a bad goal when it is overused or misapplied.  In my time, I can count:

Butterfly.
Paddle down.
VH.
RVH.

The issue isn't the save selection itself, it is that the goalie is making the first move and using it outside of the proper context (puck outside of stick length with time and space).  It's a wonderful tool for sealing and jam plays around the post.  It's vastly superior to the VH in that you are able to get your gloves down, forward and active in the play, whereas the VH is a static block.

I think the RVH may evolve in some way, similar to the butterfly.  I rarely see guys get burned in the butterfly anymore, because they learned to take vertical space away with a slight forward lean and gloves in front. It could succeed in a way that static blocks like the paddle down and VH did not.  In fact, I can't remember the last time I saw a goalie even execute a PD or VH.

Paddle down is still one of my go to moves...MAF and Quick are two that I've seen still using it recently.  Mostly for plays in tight.

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Holtby was using paddle down last night against the Bruins to great effect while looking through legs at a puck that was close by. And you know, he’s pretty good. 

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17 hours ago, Chenner29 said:

Butterfly.
Paddle down.
VH.
RVH.

You forgot that brief area of time where everyone overused "dead arm".

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47 minutes ago, ThatCarGuy said:

You forgot that brief area of time where everyone overused "dead arm".

Dead arm?

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@kedjlng3

It used to be used on just about every shot. Even away from the posts.

Image result for goalie dead arm

Basically butterfly without active hands.

Edited by ThatCarGuy
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37 minutes ago, kedjlng3 said:

Dead arm?

25 minutes ago, ThatCarGuy said:

@kedjlng3

It used to be used on just about every shot. Even away from the posts.

Image result for goalie dead arm

Basically butterfly without active hands.

download (2).jpeg

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A lot of terms like "box control", "dead arm", or "hand activation" seem like buzzwords that make things sound more technical than they actually are. 

Also, I'm under 30. So as a refresher, paddle down was this, right?

 ed-belfour-chicago-blackhawks.jpg

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Yep. It could be more upright and tight, too.

I use it in certain scenarios in close . It is undeniably effective in the right circumstances.

The edges of a blocker pay a price for it, though, especially with binding.

Screenshot_20190111-143709_Samsung Internet.jpg

Screenshot_20190111-143738_Samsung Internet.jpg

Edited by seagoal

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