Material Database

[TheGoalNet]

We’ve got some people on here with good knowledge of various materials, like @bunnyman666 + @Chenner29. 

Im also getting access to see lots of stuff. Sometimes I can’t always post it. 

I thought it might make sense to consolidate this info in 1 place and make a clear place to post pics. 

As an example, the Vaughn carbon material is a material of hot debate. I've heard someone lit it on GGSU?

I recently saw pic of it not inside pads. It is not a hard stiff sheet of carbon fiber as people may believe. It’s about as thick as the plastic in a milk jug and is extremely flexible like folding a sheet of paper 

[Chenner29]

4 hours ago, TheGoalNet said:

We’ve got some people on here with good knowledge of various materials, like @bunnyman666 + @Chenner29. 

Im also getting access to see lots of stuff. Sometimes I can’t always post it. 

I thought it might make sense to consolidate this info in 1 place and make a clear place to post pics. 

As an example, the Vaughn carbon material is a material of hot debate. I've heard someone lit it on GGSU?

I recently saw pic of it not inside pads. It is not a hard stiff sheet of carbon fiber as people may believe. It’s about as thick as the plastic in a milk jug and is extremely flexible like folding a sheet of paper 

Not really a materials expert, I just offer what I can where I can.  Most of what I've learned has to do with D30/Poron/Rubatex/Maltese gel as it's a requisite for my role.

From what I remember on that GGSU thread, they claimed that Vaughn was using plastic with a printed carbon fiber pattern to get the distinctive carbon fiber look. 
Plastic is going to provide superior protection and consistency than foam (see: Brown chest and arm units).
One of the core arguments was that carbon fiber is an expensive material to source; to run it the full length of a goal pad would make the cost of the goal pad cost prohibitive.  The pads largely stayed the same price.
Somone lit it on fire on GGSU and said that because it burned a certain color that it was definitely not carbon fiber. 

[bunnyman666]

I started my humble beginnings with doing DIY repairs of carbon fibre all the way back to 1996 when somebody’s pedal got stuck in my rear disc wheel in the transition area of a duathlon course and punched a small hole. My curiosity grew from there to becoming a small-time parts fabricator, then bicycle frame builder and finally sold a design and my business in 2009. With that experience, I still call myself a hobbyist with composite. 

Some proceedures have moved on, but many have remained the same, in some cases going back to the 1950’s and even before! I have not built in many years as my broad non-compete forbade it, but I feel that I can be a resource for simple build methods, rudimentary repairs, and even give a few tips on building your own items. 

I hope to educate. 

[RichMan]

@bunnyman666 I've seen video examples of carbon frames built. It seems to use the same process as mask building, laying layer over layer and coating it with some kind of epoxy or resin to help it bind and then it's baked. Would this be referred to as a monocoque frame? I'm taking something like Kestrel frames, unlike Vitus who had tubing made then glued into aluminum lugs. Of course, Vaughn would just use a thin weaved layer I'm guessing. I"m wondering about denting or cracking though.

[TheGoalNet]

@Chenner29 - that knowledge of the foams is pretty good though and is definitely a value add to the forum 

I wish I had a real budget for this place, I’d love to take apart pads 

[bunnyman666]

2 hours ago, RichMan said:

@bunnyman666 I've seen video examples of carbon frames built. It seems to use the same process as mask building, laying layer over layer and coating it with some kind of epoxy or resin to help it bind and then it's baked. Would this be referred to as a monocoque frame? I'm taking something like Kestrel frames, unlike Vitus who had tubing made then glued into aluminum lugs. Of course, Vaughn would just use a thin weaved layer I'm guessing. I"m wondering about denting or cracking though.

Similar, yet not. 

Monococque literally means one piece. A frame like a Kestrel is built in a clamshell mould and uses a bladder to compact the layers to cure. In many cases, several pieces are still built separately (i.e. front and rear triangles), then bonded post cure. I know that the old days that the chief reason why there were only three frame sizes was that a mould back then cost $75000!. The old KM40 was available in one size only! 

The layup can use all sorts of different fabrics. There are weave fabrics more suited to cosmetics because they are more ductile and some unidirectional fabrics that are literally so stiff before laminating that they are suited for long stretches like a wing, a hull, or part of a fuselage. Weave is suited for a masque  because of how some weaves drape around a plug or tool. Most bike frames use a fair bit of unidirectional fabric to develop ride characteristics. Even on a masque, you need to cover your 90 and 45 degree angles with fabric orientation. Weave in different orientations covers that pretty easily. 

Love the ol’ Vitus frames. Of course nobody knew that aluminium and carbon fibre together would create galvanic corrosion in the first Vitus frames because of the fact they would literally create a small electrical charge. A small amount of fibreglass would be used as an insulator. 

Sorry to geek out on you. The thought of the glory days of composite bikes and their old, wild shapes bring back the good ol’ days before the UCI jumped in and made bicycle design utterly boring...

[bunnyman666]

@TheGoalNet For argument’s sake, if that sheet inside the Vaughn pad is really carbon fibre, it can be pretty flexible as you describe, but probably not as flexible as paper. If it is a singular layer of carbon, it can be laminated and it will bend a little. If you could find a HED Jet bicycle wheel, it has a somewhat flexible carbon fairing. But it is somewhat flexible, not bendy bendy. But you can make the fairing deform by pushing it with your finger. It springs back. That is an example of a non-structural faired wheel for a bicycle, and was (and possibly still is) a value leader product. 

That singular layer of carbon would help slightly with stiffness because it is over a core material. If it were laminated to the foam, it would make the foam stiffer. From what I understand, it just sits there, no? Maybe laced in with the foams?

I would have to see a Vaughn pad apart to see how much the “carbon” helps.

If it burns and does not leave the carbon material behind, it’s not carbon. Carbon can’t burn, but the laminating material can. 

[RichMan]

6 hours ago, bunnyman666 said:

Similar, yet not. 

Monococque literally means one piece. A frame like a Kestrel is built in a clamshell mould and uses a bladder to compact the layers to cure. In many cases, several pieces are still built separately (i.e. front and rear triangles), then bonded post cure. I know that the old days that the chief reason why there were only three frame sizes was that a mould back then cost $75000!. The old KM40 was available in one size only! 

The layup can use all sorts of different fabrics. There are weave fabrics more suited to cosmetics because they are more ductile and some unidirectional fabrics that are literally so stiff before laminating that they are suited for long stretches like a wing, a hull, or part of a fuselage. Weave is suited for a masque  because of how some weaves drape around a plug or tool. Most bike frames use a fair bit of unidirectional fabric to develop ride characteristics. Even on a masque, you need to cover your 90 and 45 degree angles with fabric orientation. Weave in different orientations covers that pretty easily. 

Love the ol’ Vitus frames. Of course nobody knew that aluminium and carbon fibre together would create galvanic corrosion in the first Vitus frames because of the fact they would literally create a small electrical charge. A small amount of fibreglass would be used as an insulator. 

Sorry to geek out on you. The thought of the glory days of composite bikes and their old, wild shapes bring back the good ol’ days before the UCI jumped in and made bicycle design utterly boring...

I actually enjoyed your tech talk. My Vitus I rode during my racing days was beautiful and light, but flexy like hell. A 6'2 178lbs rider on a 58" 797 aluminum frame was not the best combination. I actually striped out my rear derailleur from the drop stay from all the torque in my climbing and sprinting. Never got to see the carbon version. I was nervous it might snap under the pressure. It was best suited for the little guys like Herrera and his Colombian friends.

[bunnyman666]

5 minutes ago, RichMan said:

I actually enjoyed your tech talk. My Vitus I rode during my racing days was beautiful and light, but flexy like hell. A 6'2 178lbs rider on a 58" 797 aluminum frame was not the best combination. I actually striped out my rear derailleur from the drop stay from all the torque in my climbing and sprinting. Never got to see the carbon version. I was nervous it might snap under the pressure. It was best suited for the little guys like Herrera and his Colombian friends.

I had a couple of different Vitus frames, including aluminium tube/lugs. The original Look carbon frames were made by Vitus. Vitus also made Lemond’s original carbon bikes.They were flexy frames, for certain; the Vitus carbon were vastly improved over the aluminum versions. 

My favourite carbon frame? Trek OCLV. They were a great bike.

[RichMan]

So back on topic...

Here's one I don't understand: I own/use a Reidic mask which is a mold injected ABS plastic. The Wall Pro-Active (W4) uses the same approach/materials. Both masks are very light, very protective and have been used by pros. Why the hell didn't Itech jump on this idea for their entry level masks instead of producing those shit widow makers like they did? Why isn't Bauer or CCM looking into this either?

[TheGoalNet]

17 hours ago, bunnyman666 said:

@TheGoalNet For argument’s sake, if that sheet inside the Vaughn pad is really carbon fibre, it can be pretty flexible as you describe, but probably not as flexible as paper. If it is a singular layer of carbon, it can be laminated and it will bend a little. If you could find a HED Jet bicycle wheel, it has a somewhat flexible carbon fairing. But it is somewhat flexible, not bendy bendy. But you can make the fairing deform by pushing it with your finger. It springs back. That is an example of a non-structural faired wheel for a bicycle, and was (and possibly still is) a value leader product. 

That singular layer of carbon would help slightly with stiffness because it is over a core material. If it were laminated to the foam, it would make the foam stiffer. From what I understand, it just sits there, no? Maybe laced in with the foams?

I would have to see a Vaughn pad apart to see how much the “carbon” helps.

If it burns and does not leave the carbon material behind, it’s not carbon. Carbon can’t burn, but the laminating material can. 

Understood it could be a thin layer or two and that would make it flexible, but I question how much that would really help?

[TheGoalNet]

On 2/16/2018 at 11:24 PM, RichMan said:

So back on topic...

Here's one I don't understand: I own/use a Reidic mask which is a mold injected ABS plastic. The Wall Pro-Active (W4) uses the same approach/materials. Both masks are very light, very protective and have been used by pros. Why the hell didn't Itech jump on this idea for their entry level masks instead of producing those shit widow makers like they did? Why isn't Bauer or CCM looking into this either?

So, I honestly have never paid much attention to Wall... but I think there is more going on at all Wall

1. Their masks are heavy. A generic injection molded piece of ABS is typically light weight. 

2. Here's a video of their mask being machined with an end mill attached to a Fanuc robot. If it were just pure injection molding, this step would seem overkill?

@Jukka Ropponen - Can you shed any light about their materials, process, or mask make up?

[bunnyman666]

12 hours ago, TheGoalNet said:

Understood it could be a thin layer or two and that would make it flexible, but I question how much that would really help?

If it is laminated to the foam, it would add some stiffness to the foam. However- if they were serious about stiffening the foam, there would be a layer both front and back. Again- I would love to see the foam and “carbon”.I would love to see if any stores had a display of the foam and carbon fibre. 

[TheGoalNet]

6 hours ago, bunnyman666 said:

If it is laminated to the foam, it would some stiffness to the foam. However- if they were serious about stiffening the foam, there would be a layer both front and back. Again- I would love to see the foam and “carbon”.I would love to see if any stores had a display of the foam and carbon fibre. 

I think we’re on the same page about this, but your able to articulate this way better! 

[bunnyman666]

2 hours ago, TheGoalNet said:

I think we’re on the same page about this, but your able to articulate this way better! 

I don’t want to call it gimmicky if it actually does what it says it does, and it may do what it says. A singular layer of carbon could theoretically stiffen foam just enough to prevent folding of the foam and if laid up in the desired manner could tune the characteristics. The carbon would act as a reinforcement and the foam act as a core material. 

[TheGoalNet]

1 hour ago, bunnyman666 said:

I don’t want to call it gimmicky if it actually does what it says it does, and it may do what it says. A singular layer of carbon could theoretically stiffen foam just enough to prevent folding of the foam and if laid up in the desired manner could tune the characteristics. The carbon would act as a reinforcement and the foam act as a core material. 

Very well said 

[Jukka Ropponen]

On 17/02/2018 at 6:33 AM, TheGoalNet said:

So, I honestly have never paid much attention to Wall... but I think there is more going on at all Wall

1. Their masks are heavy. A generic injection molded piece of ABS is typically light weight. 

2. Here's a video of their mask being machined with an end mill attached to a Fanuc robot. If it were just pure injection molding, this step would seem overkill?

@Jukka Ropponen - Can you shed any light about their materials, process, or mask make up?

They have several versions and different materials. Me and the goalies I coach use W10 (carbon-kevlar) and W12 models (aramid-kevlar).

JUkka

[TheGoalNet]

Anyone know where I can source the VN style foam that Protechsport uses? Looking for it to reinforce some padding. Not a helmet application. Also, anyone know what type of glue works best to connect two pieces of foam?

[bunnyman666]

8 hours ago, TheGoalNet said:

Anyone know where I can source the VN style foam that Protechsport uses? Looking for it to reinforce some padding. Not a helmet application. Also, anyone know what type of glue works best to connect two pieces of foam?

A mastic-type contact cement does best. 

[TheGoalNet]

56 minutes ago, bunnyman666 said:

A mastic-type contact cement does best. 

Could it be used in an area that might flex, like a knee pad?

[bunnyman666]

8 minutes ago, TheGoalNet said:

Could it be used in an area that might flex, like a knee pad?

Yes, mainly due to the fact that it is the same stuff used to secure weather stripping.

[TheGoalNet]

12 hours ago, bunnyman666 said:

Yes, mainly due to the fact that it is the same stuff used to secure weather stripping.

Thanks 

have one of my materials located. Need VN foam now 

[SaveByRichter35]

On 3/6/2018 at 9:53 PM, TheGoalNet said:

Anyone know where I can source the VN style foam that Protechsport uses? Looking for it to reinforce some padding. Not a helmet application. Also, anyone know what type of glue works best to connect two pieces of foam?

Have you ever had a Pro's Choice mask in hand?  I am curious what kind of foam it uses.  I got my PC in 2012 and got a refurb last year and the foam was still as soft as it was day 1.  My previous mask was an Eddy Custom LT and the foam in that mask was rock hard inside of 2 years, if that.  Maybe @Chenner29 might know.

[TheGoalNet]

22 minutes ago, SaveByRichter35 said:

Have you ever had a Pro's Choice mask in hand?  I am curious what kind of foam it uses.  I got my PC in 2012 and got a refurb last year and the foam was still as soft as it was day 1.  My previous mask was an Eddy Custom LT and the foam in that mask was rock hard inside of 2 years, if that.  Maybe @Chenner29 might know.

Yes, I’ve seen one. I don’t know the specifics though of their foam. I know Protechsport offers cream and black. Maybe Pro’s Choice uses the cream version of Michel’s black VN?

[SaveByRichter35]

I haven no idea what VN foam is so I can't confirm.  I guess I'll find out when I eventually get my Protechsport.