Jump to content

TheGoalNet

Recommended Posts

@IPv6Freely - IMO, the most unique thing about the construction is that the side carbon fiber runs into the outsole and its 1 piece. This is in contrast to the traditional boot and then secondary piece for the outsole.

 Aside from that, VH changed up the accessibility of custom and emphasized fit. They didn’t pioneer any new technology, materials, etc 

VH didn’t change how skates were built. They revolutionized how they fit and how they are sold. 

CCM is looking to introduce lateral flex. That’s not been done before. If it works and is real, this could represent a massive shift... like the first Bauer skates to use Curv / Alive 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am fine with that. I am also not trying to be argumentative, but I like candor. . .

If your open to sharing what technology, design, etc VH pioneered to the boot ifself, I open to continuing this discussion? 

I am NOT anti VH or ripping on them. I feel their rapid success was achieved by fit and not the R&D of materials. Bauer and CCM are spending more on R&D

CCM is supposedly pioneering new materials that allow the boot to move in ways it never has before. 

VH contributions:

  • Easy availability of custom 
  • Enhanced fit 
  • 1 Piece skate design (Great tech, but that is not new boot materials)
  • 1 piece out sole + boot w/2 piece skate - This is a first and their biggest tech contribution 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, TheGoalNet said:

I am fine with that. I am also not trying to be argumentative, but I like candor. . .

If your open to sharing what technology, design, etc VH pioneered to the boot ifself, I open to continuing this discussion? 

I am NOT anti VH or ripping on them. I feel their rapid success was achieved by fit and not the R&D of materials. Bauer and CCM are spending more on R&D

CCM is supposedly pioneering new materials that allow the boot to move in ways it never has before. 

VH contributions:

  • Easy availability of custom 
  • Enhanced fit 
  • 1 Piece skate design (Great tech, but that is not new boot materials)
  • 1 piece out sole + boot w/2 piece skate - This is a first and their biggest tech contribution 

Well said. I couldn't agree with you more. I currently have 2 pairs of custom made Bauer and after finally seeing and holding a VH/True skate there is nothing super special to make me want to go out and get a pair versus what I currently own. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Snowman30 said:

Well said. I couldn't agree with you more. I currently have 2 pairs of custom made Bauer and after finally seeing and holding a VH/True skate there is nothing super special to make me want to go out and get a pair versus what I currently own. 

I’m not surprised unless you wore them. They don’t look or feel special. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, TheGoalNet said:

I am fine with that. I am also not trying to be argumentative, but I like candor. . .

If your open to sharing what technology, design, etc VH pioneered to the boot ifself, I open to continuing this discussion? 

I am NOT anti VH or ripping on them. I feel their rapid success was achieved by fit and not the R&D of materials. Bauer and CCM are spending more on R&D

CCM is supposedly pioneering new materials that allow the boot to move in ways it never has before. 

VH contributions:

  • Easy availability of custom 
  • Enhanced fit 
  • 1 Piece skate design (Great tech, but that is not new boot materials)
  • 1 piece out sole + boot w/2 piece skate - This is a first and their biggest tech contribution 

I just don’t care enough to bother. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem with looking at VH for skate tech is that you can't forget the MLX innovations either. Since they were basically the same idea.

MLX didn't invent the one piece outsole and carbon fibre boot. That was Kor, but MLX made them popular and enough so that Easton bought MLX and created the Mako. 

MLX had a very flexible tendon guard and a very different skate construction in terms of the skate profile and stock pitch of the skate. A Mako and a Bauer skate are very different in how they are shaped and it is not just how the boot wraps the foot.

Also, while Curv is a good feature, Graf used to constantly state that it is nothing but a plastic and would burn the material like the infamous burning of Vaughns carbon inserts. The carbon used in MLX skates could and probably should be considered a higher quality material.

CCM has done a good job brining a one piece outsole to the market for mass production in the Super Tacks and FT1 player skates but they didn't innovate the idea. But I don't think this new flex idea will be anything amazing in their goal skates. CCM has made some questionable decision for goal skates recently, D3O for example is a high impact foam and yet is being used for an insole? Current gen it is being used in the tongue for some reason... The fact that the AS1 isn't a player boot with a longer holder and steel is strange to me, and until they make that change they'll be second fiddle to Bauer and True. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For me, I’m beyond impressed with the inroads that True has made at the pro level. It also feels like they are boarding on a cult status with the beer leaguers. Neither of those items should be overlooked and they’re clearly turning out a quality product. It’s also an amazing David vs Goliath story. So tons of respects for what’s going there. 

If people haven’t noticed, I’m all for challenging ideas. For me, VH falls a bit into the category of Vaughn pads or Brown C&As to me. I fully respect you can’t wrong go with them and don’t blame anyone for buying them. However, I question if their tech is pushing the industry forward. For me, I’m always fascinated what is new and what’s next 

Daust, Micron, Graf and now True... it seems like there is always a niche for a “small big” skate company to compete with Bauer and CCM 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/22/2017 at 7:28 PM, TheGoalNet said:

A little premature for this sort of wear and tear? 

IMG_6095.PNG

Also am using Pro return Avs pants and it’s completely frayed for the most part but with my team pant covers I made them become a part of the pants. Really effective. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, TheGoalNet said:

For me, I’m beyond impressed with the inroads that True has made at the pro level. It also feels like they are boarding on a cult status with the beer leaguers. Neither of those items should be overlooked and they’re clearly turning out a quality product. It’s also an amazing David vs Goliath story. So tons of respects for what’s going there. 

If people haven’t noticed, I’m all for challenging ideas. For me, VH falls a bit into the category of Vaughn pads or Brown C&As to me. I fully respect you can’t wrong go with them and don’t blame anyone for buying them. However, I question if their tech is pushing the industry forward. For me, I’m always fascinated what is new and what’s next 

Daust, Micron, Graf and now True... it seems like there is always a niche for a “small big” skate company to compete with Bauer and CCM 

You put them in a category with Vaughn and Brown? Both of those companies stick to tried and true and aren’t anywhere near as innovative as VH. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, IPv6Freely said:

You put them in a category with Vaughn and Brown? Both of those companies stick to tried and true and aren’t anywhere near as innovative as VH. 

To pigtail onto what you’re saying, bringing custom to everybody in an uncomplicated way IS innovation. Arguably, it is customised, but STILL- you had to depend on what last a company was going to use for what skate you were going to buy, and that is STILL the case with Bauer and CCM. I can’t fit in any of the bigs’ offerings... Before VH/True came along, you had to depend on someone measuring your foot correctly to get custom Bauer. That was a crapshoot, at best.

 I would argue that Bauer and CCM are stuck in the past with their skates: stock  lasts with stock foot shapes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@IPv6Freely @bunnyman666 - Innovation can take multiple forms... The way they run their business, how they sell them, the designs, etc etc

For me Curve / Alive are the biggest thing to happen to skates since the original Tuuk. You may not agree, but that is my opinion. Skates used to be Nylon / Leather. Once that came out, everyone went in that direction.  Companies like Graf that bucked the trend diminished quickly. . . 

So I think that VH is innovating how skates are bought /sold. No inventory, all custom, each skate is somewhat a snowflake etc, etc etc. They are shifting the discussion toward comfort and being built by craftsmen. This is a stark contrast to Bauer who is selling light weight, improved performance, and visible engineering on the boot. It's completely different approach and that's probably why it's working 

I think Bauer is constantly pushing the boundaries of what shapes can be in a boot, what they can engineer into a boot, and the theoretical weight a skate can be. 

I think Bauer is innovating what skates are made of and how much they weigh and True is innovating how they are bought and sold 

@IPv6Freely - With my comparison to Vaughn or Brown, my point is that they are using a traditional approach to construction. A Bauer boot is molded and theirs is cut and sew.

They are taking a group of stock pieces and sewing them together to fit your foot mold. This is identical to what Protechsport is doing with masks. It will be very interesting to see where they are in 5 years. Are they making minor tweaks to the existing design or are they continuing to to come up with new ways of customizing the skate? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, TheGoalNet said:

I think Bauer is constantly pushing the boundaries of what shapes can be in a boot, what they can engineer into a boot, and the theoretical weight a skate can be. 

They were a major catalyst for how cowlings have changed. With the vertexx cutout being a major proponent to the idea of reducing the cowling to just be a toe cap to them popularizing the cowlingless skate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I agree Vertexx was huge and Bauer has been great for goalie innovation in removing the cowling. Other companies have done more recently in terms of skate tech than Bauer has... Kor was a carbon boot before Bauer, pretty sure Easton was the first one to the market though. MLX was the first successful skate without an outsole before CCM.

In the player skate world, CCM is leading retail in terms of tech, while Bauer keeps pumping out features many people opt out of on custom skates (and pro skates) like injected eyelids, flex tendon guard, plastic/rubberized tongue protection.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, TheGoalNet said:

@IPv6Freely @bunnyman666 - Innovation can take multiple forms... The way they run their business, how they sell them, the designs, etc etc

For me Curve / Alive are the biggest thing to happen to skates since the original Tuuk. You may not agree, but that is my opinion. Skates used to be Nylon / Leather. Once that came out, everyone went in that direction.  Companies like Graf that bucked the trend diminished quickly. . . 

So I think that VH is innovating how skates are bought /sold. No inventory, all custom, each skate is somewhat a snowflake etc, etc etc. They are shifting the discussion toward comfort and being built by craftsmen. This is a stark contrast to Bauer who is selling light weight, improved performance, and visible engineering on the boot. It's completely different approach and that's probably why it's working 

I think Bauer is constantly pushing the boundaries of what shapes can be in a boot, what they can engineer into a boot, and the theoretical weight a skate can be. 

I think Bauer is innovating what skates are made of and how much they weigh and True is innovating how they are bought and sold 

@IPv6Freely - With my comparison to Vaughn or Brown, my point is that they are using a traditional approach to construction. A Bauer boot is molded and theirs is cut and sew.

They are taking a group of stock pieces and sewing them together to fit your foot mold. This is identical to what Protechsport is doing with masks. It will be very interesting to see where they are in 5 years. Are they making minor tweaks to the existing design or are they continuing to to come up with new ways of customizing the skate? 

Are you certain about cut and sew on the VH boot?

I will take a good look at mine tonight. Yes- some textile pieces are sewn on and in the boot. But why would you cut and sew the upper when it is clear that the boot is moulded carbon fibre?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...