NHL concerned by rise in goalie concussions

[bunnyman666]

1 hour ago, Scythe said:

Why are the skaters still wearing what they do... some not even a shield. The mask should have way more padding inside, and what's the seperate back plate design all about? If one will look like an astronaut then so be it. 

[MTH]

5 hours ago, Scythe said:

Why are the skaters still wearing what they do... some not even a shield. The mask should have way more padding inside, and what's the seperate back plate design all about? If one will look like an astronaut then so be it. 

I think a solid round helmet is the best for protection. The mask with a plate is Jaques Plante design. 

Someone mentioned the Jofa helmet. If you think about it, a round helmet would be much stronger than a mask. 

Like the Onezee 

https://www.onezeegoaliehelmet.com/

[bunnyman666]

50 minutes ago, MTH said:

I think a solid round helmet is the best for protection. The mask with a plate is Jaques Plante design. 

Someone mentioned the Jofa helmet. If you think about it, a round helmet would be much stronger than a mask. 

Like the Onezee 

https://www.onezeegoaliehelmet.com/

The problem with the Onezee is that is is essentially a conventional goalie helmet that covers the back plate. Some other deflectors need to be on the shell. But at least there aren’t complete flat spots. 

One big problem is chin slings, et.al. Yes, we need something with an actual chin strap and possibly more like a helmet. In essence, we are protected with 1970’s tech. 

My new lid has some advancements to it. It is slightly larger on my head. Yes- I need to weigh it!

[Scythe]

A couple months ago i installed this Adams football chin strap into my mask. The cup that came with the mask is like a hard styrofoam. I was wanting a tighter fit around the chin, more than what the blue styrofoam cup was giving me. 

It felt weird at first... i wasn't sure i wanted to feel like a chipmunk but after a few uses i kind of learned to like it. It does feel a lot more stable now around the chin. Much deeper cup. I don't know maybe it could be my imagination but shots to the mask felt different.. in a good way. Noticed that after the first one. 

Had to cut the strap that came with the Adams off to thread the mask strap through it. Nothing that will prevent concussions just something i wanted to try in that area. 

[bunnyman666]

1 hour ago, Scythe said:

A couple months ago i installed this Adams football chin strap into my mask. The cup that came with the mask is like a hard styrofoam. I was wanting a tighter fit around the chin, more than what the blue styrofoam cup was giving me. 

It felt weird at first... i wasn't sure i wanted to feel like a chipmunk but after a few uses i kind of learned to like it. It does feel a lot more stable now around the chin. Much deeper cup. I don't know maybe it could be my imagination but shots to the mask felt different.. in a good way. Noticed that after the first one. 

Had to cut the strap that came with the Adams off to thread the mask strap through it. Nothing that will prevent concussions just something i wanted to try in that area. 

I will say that you are more likely to get hurt with a helmet flapping in the wind. I actually got my helmet cinched down pretty tight with the chin cup in my new Victory lid, which is something I can’t say about any of my others. I feel that if nothing else, I will less likely end up like Bishop with broken teeth. 

[SaveByRichter35]

12 minutes ago, bunnyman666 said:

I will say that you are more likely to get hurt with a helmet flapping in the wind. I actually got my helmet cinched down pretty tight with the chin cup in my new Victory lid, which is something I can’t say about any of my others. I feel that if nothing else, I will less likely end up like Bishop with broken teeth. 

Indeed.  You shouldn't be able to shake your head inside of your mask nor be able to just flip your mask up while its all strapped up.  If you can then it is not tight enough or the elastic is not firm enough to hold it in place correctly.

[bunnyman666]

29 minutes ago, SaveByRichter35 said:

Indeed.  You shouldn't be able to shake your head inside of your mask nor be able to just flip your mask up while its all strapped up.  If you can then it is not tight enough or the elastic is not firm enough to hold it in place correctly.

I have learnt this lesson the hard way. Thankfully, no concussions or anything like that as the shots were a whopping 5 mph, but it woke me up! That was also the same day when I learnt to wear a cup under the goalie jock!

[Cruskater]

I had a Bauer in college and other than a few ringers, never had an actual concussion from a puck, only a knee to the head. Got a concussion in Feb. '18 on my CCM from a one timed clapper in the mid-slot. Put a crack in the forehead too. Went to an OTNY with maltese and kevlar. Heavier but I don't feel a thing! Wearing a chin sling but thinking of suring it up with a chin strap.

[A.YOUNGoalie13]

Could their be more NHL concussions because of the cages they use as well? My otny cage is dented like crazy and I replaced it a month ago. Even when NHL take rockets off the face, the cage almost never dents. Bauer stopped the production of titanium cages for this reason: they were to strong and stiff. I know bishop still uses a titanium but maybe other Bauer helmet wearers are still using them too

[bunnyman666]

10 minutes ago, A.YOUNGoalie13 said:

Could their be more NHL concussions because of the cages they use as well? My otny cage is dented like crazy and I replaced it a month ago. Even when NHL take rockets off the face, the cage almost never dents. Bauer stopped the production of titanium cages for this reason: they were to strong and stiff. I know bishop still uses a titanium but maybe other Bauer helmet wearers are still using them too

Truth is that even if Bauer does not sell them, there are a variety of makers who can build a Ti cage. I also remember that the Ti cages Bauer sold had some QC problems. 

When I was in the bicycle business, one of the main reasons why Ti bike frames were so expensive was actually how high the fail/reject rate is in manufacturing, not so much the raw material costs. I toured a famous Ti bike frame plant in Tennessee and saw multiple frame parts used as door stops, broom handles, and other items! 

My main problem with Ti for cages is that they use the same manufacturing methods as they do steel cages and that presents a durability problem.

[MTH]

Ti don't bend - it just breaks. So what would you rather have over your face?

[MTH]

On 12/17/2019 at 5:16 PM, SaveByRichter35 said:

Indeed.  You shouldn't be able to shake your head inside of your mask nor be able to just flip your mask up while its all strapped up.  If you can then it is not tight enough or the elastic is not firm enough to hold it in place correctly.

Lacrosse helmets are a pretty good design. 

Your head is up in the helmet with the cage not touching your face at all. The helmet only uses a chin strap with 4 snaps to secure your head in the helmet. All the helmets are adjustable in the back. But any shot to your face is transmitted to helmet and not directly to your face. The impact is more spread out.

Lacrosse has a lot of contact to the helmet and face. Between sticks, shoulders and the occasional ball.

[bunnyman666]

15 minutes ago, MTH said:

Ti don't bend - it just breaks. So what would you rather have over your face?

I know what I would rather have, and it is not Titanium. Between the QC problems in the manufacture and the insistence of using the same size wire as steel, steel is a better alternative for a cage.

[MTH]

21 hours ago, bunnyman666 said:

... better alternative for a cage.

Force field.

[Don Straus]

The MAIN challenge with titanium is not titanium. It is the welding of the titanium. 
Ti needs to be welded in an inert environment, or the weld site needs to be flooded with the inert gas. It is oxygen and other contaminants that destroy the weld, and subsequently the parent material. A contaminated ti weld makes things brittle. Very brittle. Even prior to the actual welding process, you should have a dedicated set of tools (cutters, files, grinders, etc) to keep the contamination down. 
One problem comes when you try to build approved cages with ti. More bars, more joints, more overlap, more chances for contamination. More contamination, More breakage. 
Depending on the grade of titanium, it is more resilient than some carbon or stainless. 
Titanium is a wonderful material. It just needs to be treated with some knowledge and respect. 
FWIW, I never had any issues with ti cages, and only built pro/cat eye from it. 

[CJ Boiss]

11 hours ago, MTH said:

Force field.

But can you paint the force fields?

[bunnyman666]

On the subject of titanium cages: Welded bicycles made of anything other than steel currently are only made in countries where manufacturers are willing to spend the money on doing things like use argon gas and keeping the welding environment clean. That is why composites have taken over because once the engineering has been done, it takes relatively unskilled workers to build the products. You can hide A LOT when building composites; of course cleanly built composites will perform much better and can be lighter. I suspect the biggest reason why you can’t get a Ti cage for a Bauer mask is that the failure rate was pretty high due to poor manufacturing methods, mainly due to the factory they used turning out too many rejects because they wanted to do the job as cheaply as possible.  Ben Bishop will get a Ti cage because someone who knows what they are doing is building his. A well-built Ti cage probably would cost well over $250 at the retail level. 

I would entertain a titanium cage if I could see what the shoppe looks like and what their processes are. You can show processes without giving away any proprietary secrets.  Using inert gases is something textbook in welding exotic materials, but anyone who doesn’t want to show you how their stuff is made would likely be hiding something. Being that most cages available at retail level would be built in the cheapest manner available, steel is what I want, as Ti won’t be built with the utmost care in the current environment of “build it cheap and pretty, then charge a mint”. Steel can be built cheaply and still perform. 

I will further clarify my position on titanium cages: I would consider one if made with larger wire in an environment suitable for welding titanium. On retail level, it isn’t happening. And I can’t currently afford a custom-built $300 cage! Steel will do, as it is a $185 on the very top end (custom built), and sometimes as cheap as $75 on sale, most of these cages being built by a factory in Canada that also makes wire shopping trolleys...

I had touched on the difficulty in building with titanium because this bicycle manufacturer where I had toured the plant had a high reject rate and they knew what they were doing, having supplied aerospace with titanium objects for twenty years prior to building bike frames. It’s been touched on that too many welds can contaminate the material. That was why some pieces like cable guides were riveted and glued in later iterations. 

The wet dream of a composites factory would be a cage with the tensile strength of titanium, but could be built like a composite in a mould rather than bending wire and welding. Or 3D printed composite with the tensile strength of steel or titanium. Maybe something like that is on the horizon...

[MTH]

But the issue here is concussions - not breaking of your face. The mask and cage does it's job - keeps your face in one piece.

Brain banging around is the other.

[bunnyman666]

1 hour ago, MTH said:

But the issue here is concussions - not breaking of your face. The mask and cage does it's job - keeps your face in one piece.

Brain banging around is the other.

As a bicycle frame material, titanium gave a very nice ride and was the material of choice for ultra distance; of course the difference is tissue thin sheets of material formed into tubing (at least it used to be that titanium can’t be made into seamless tubing; that could have been changed). Would it even have shock absorptive properties in a piece of wire? Doubtful.

I just don’t think in the current mass-produced culture I would want titanium cages.

Until people are okay with helmets looking like the Great Gazoo, we will continue to have concussion problems in both skaters and players. Did you know that the small shell/thin padding helmet is still a thing? I have a CCM/Reebok helmet that is a small shell with “pro” liner, and it’s relatively new. Scarier part? It was pro stock for an NCAA hockey team!

[MTH]

Helmets only protect the skull from fractures. 

So yeah - the thinly padded helmets will still work. My one son wears this:

My other son is in this:

Whatever they want is fine to me as long as it's certified, not damaged and most importantly, fits well.

[TheGoalNet]

On 12/19/2019 at 10:58 AM, A.YOUNGoalie13 said:

Could their be more NHL concussions because of the cages they use as well? My otny cage is dented like crazy and I replaced it a month ago. Even when NHL take rockets off the face, the cage almost never dents. Bauer stopped the production of titanium cages for this reason: they were to strong and stiff. I know bishop still uses a titanium but maybe other Bauer helmet wearers are still using them too

I had one major company tell me this is one of the major topics that isn't discussed with helmet safety.

Everyone gets all into the discussion of the lay up. We are just starting to talk now about the liner. Why doesn't anyone talk about the cage? That is where people most often get hit. As much as people don't like changing their cages or feel it's expensive, pretty great the biggest "wear" area is replaceable.

[TheGoalNet]

6 hours ago, MTH said:

Helmets only protect the skull from fractures. 

So yeah - the thinly padded helmets will still work. My one son wears this:

My other son is in this:

Whatever they want is fine to me as long as it's certified, not damaged and most importantly, fits well.

There is where the NFL is crushing hockey. I got to attend the NFL helmet safety event. The NFL standard was initially based on making sure people didn't fracture their skull. It has since evolved into try to minimize concussions. This has lead to quantifiably safer helmets.

Hockey is still stuck on just making sure you don't crack your head to get approved.

The NFL has started phasing out helmets that are 10-15 years old in design.

The most popular helmet is still that Bauer pictured above in hockey?

The NHL needs to step their game up and the standards will change.

[bunnyman666]

7 hours ago, TheGoalNet said:

There is where the NFL is crushing hockey. I got to attend the NFL helmet safety event. The NFL standard was initially based on making sure people didn't fracture their skull. It has since evolved into try to minimize concussions. This has lead to quantifiably safer helmets.

Hockey is still stuck on just making sure you don't crack your head to get approved.

The NFL has started phasing out helmets that are 10-15 years old in design.

The most popular helmet is still that Bauer pictured above in hockey?

The NHL needs to step their game up and the standards will change.

EPS is not the way forward for helmets, and I hope they never put that crap in my goalie helmet.

Actually, EPS saved my life three times in horrendous bicycle accidents. I may have needed some large bandages covering most of my body from the road rash, but the EPS helmet made certain my head wasn’t porridge when it was done. The funniest thing was, 2/3 of those major accidents, the helmet looked intact; the company who manufactured the helmets had a one and done policy and would send you a new helmet as it was part of the R&D. Both times, the liner was decimated, but that is what the design is meant to do.

Why I don’t want EPS? It is meant to disintegrate internally so that it absorbs impact. The stuff I am seeing (especially with Bell helmets/Giro under the Easton umbrella) is the same stuff. Nothing in the user directions saying to send the helmet back. I have never heard of an EPS that does not disintegrate on impact. And a goalie could face several impacts per game! 

Would a body check where your head hits the glass qualify as an impact that could destroy an EPS liner? Bicycle crashes on average are less than 10 mph. Mine were more, and one was during a criterium race where speeds can get to 30 mph. One can easily travel 8-12 mph on skates, and a shot can hit you at 20 plus mph. 

There is a long way to go on the helmet thing, and a lot of it is getting over the optics of a more protective helmet. 

[bunnyman666]

8 hours ago, TheGoalNet said:

There is where the NFL is crushing hockey. I got to attend the NFL helmet safety event. The NFL standard was initially based on making sure people didn't fracture their skull. It has since evolved into try to minimize concussions. This has lead to quantifiably safer helmets.

Hockey is still stuck on just making sure you don't crack your head to get approved.

The NFL has started phasing out helmets that are 10-15 years old in design.

The most popular helmet is still that Bauer pictured above in hockey?

The NHL needs to step their game up and the standards will change.

The helmet you mention is close to a 25 year old design and branched off of the SK2000. I did erroneously say it was originally a Cooper product, but it branched off of the last new Cooper helmet. That helmet, BTW is STILL available! The point is that this design pays its lineage to older designs. So many of the newer designs that are worn in the NHL actually go back to small shells and thin “pro fit” padding, which is why the helmets look so huge on retail customers. Yes- the EPS foam is eliminated and they use thin VN padding in the smallest shell available.

If you think how long it took to make just wearing shoulder caps on your braces (suspenders) illegal, and the fact that the HT-2 finally left the building maybe ten years ago, it is going to take a long time to change attitudes in hockey as far as protection goes. We had people wearing ornamental head protection (Jofa 235.51) for nearly 30 years!

It could very well be the culture of the sport that has kept innovation in head protection relatively stagnant. 

[A.YOUNGoalie13]

11 hours ago, TheGoalNet said:

I had one major company tell me this is one of the major topics that isn't discussed with helmet safety.

Everyone gets all into the discussion of the lay up. We are just starting to talk now about the liner. Why doesn't anyone talk about the cage? That is where people most often get hit. As much as people don't like changing their cages or feel it's expensive, pretty great the biggest "wear" area is replaceable.

That’s exactly why I brought them up. Cages dent and sometimes people get hurt. I personally feel that a lot of concussions from shots are hits to the forehead and probably not the cage because they dent, but I feel like the stiffness of TI cages would cause the same impact pressure of getting hit in the forehead.