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NHL concerned by rise in goalie concussions

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15 hours ago, TheGoalNet said:

I had one major company tell me this is one of the major topics that isn't discussed with helmet safety.

Everyone gets all into the discussion of the lay up. We are just starting to talk now about the liner. Why doesn't anyone talk about the cage? That is where people most often get hit. As much as people don't like changing their cages or feel it's expensive, pretty great the biggest "wear" area is replaceable.

It's interesting that the only recent attempt at addressing this was the S.A.W. system on the Bauer C2 lid from a few years ago.

The screws holding the cage in place were mounted in a EPDM like mold that recoiled when struck. I had the bucket for years and never felt too much of a negative effect from shots to the dome. Especially since it's a mid level mask.

My VTX is light years better, but it is interesting that Bauer just abandoned that design.

bauer-goalie-mask-concept-c2-cert.thumb.jpg.f17532bcc7a9137a9e6edfd81ff4be30.jpg

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Guess you mean more than the washers but my new OTNY mask has those. I’ve taken a few (not NFL quality of course) of that and don’t have any ring or even feel it other than the sound really. That’s with their new foam. I’m all for a new way to be safe. Even safer... if I didn’t read up here I likely would have been hurt by now getting back into the position playing 2-3x a week. 

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10 hours ago, coopaloop1234 said:

It's interesting that the only recent attempt at addressing this was the S.A.W. system on the Bauer C2 lid from a few years ago.

The screws holding the cage in place were mounted in a EPDM like mold that recoiled when struck. I had the bucket for years and never felt too much of a negative effect from shots to the dome. Especially since it's a mid level mask.

My VTX is light years better, but it is interesting that Bauer just abandoned that design.

bauer-goalie-mask-concept-c2-cert.thumb.jpg.f17532bcc7a9137a9e6edfd81ff4be30.jpg

I bought a C2 when I first started goaltending three years ago. Gone through two cages since, and taken some bombs right between the eyes, but it's done its job extremely well. The hardest shots I've taken left me with a bit of ringing, but even the worst of those had faded by the start of the next face-off. Got it on sale for $350CAD, I think? Great deal.

Disappointed when I heard that Bauer doesn't have replacement hardware kits for those rubber grommets.

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9 hours ago, CJ Boiss said:

I bought a C2 when I first started goaltending three years ago. Gone through two cages since, and taken some bombs right between the eyes, but it's done its job extremely well. The hardest shots I've taken left me with a bit of ringing, but even the worst of those had faded by the start of the next face-off. Got it on sale for $350CAD, I think? Great deal.

Disappointed when I heard that Bauer doesn't have replacement hardware kits for those rubber grommets.

Yea I was overall very happy with the C2. When the grommets started to rip/rot, I spent a good amount of time chasing up shops/bauer/craigslist, etc. to try and find some replacements to no avail.

They haven't made them for a few years now and you'll be real pressed to find any replacements. So take care of those as they're the only ones you're going to get. 😛

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They live in baseball...

27671269828_fe6e12e93a_o.jpg

Force 3 Baseball

That said - baseball catchers are going away from the 'hockey style' masks.

Brian-McCann-Getty-Images.jpg

Even the F3 hockey style mask above has a larger than the face opening cage that is suspended. This would work in hockey. 

Why not?

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13 minutes ago, MTH said:

They live in baseball...

27671269828_fe6e12e93a_o.jpg

Force 3 Baseball

That said - baseball catchers are going away from the 'hockey style' masks.

Brian-McCann-Getty-Images.jpg

Even the F3 hockey style mask above has a larger than the face opening cage that is suspended. This would work in hockey. 

Why not?

You are not wrong.

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Posted (edited)
On 1/8/2020 at 8:54 AM, MTH said:

They live in baseball...

27671269828_fe6e12e93a_o.jpg

Force 3 Baseball

That said - baseball catchers are going away from the 'hockey style' masks.

Brian-McCann-Getty-Images.jpg

Even the F3 hockey style mask above has a larger than the face opening cage that is suspended. This would work in hockey. 

Why not?

I mean, baseball catchers never have to worry about getting cranked on the side of the head. Goalies do. I'm sure those springs do a great job at absorbing impacts that hit the cage square on the front, but how would they stand up to a shot from the side?

On 1/8/2020 at 8:13 AM, coopaloop1234 said:

Yea I was overall very happy with the C2. When the grommets started to rip/rot, I spent a good amount of time chasing up shops/bauer/craigslist, etc. to try and find some replacements to no avail.

They haven't made them for a few years now and you'll be real pressed to find any replacements. So take care of those as they're the only ones you're going to get. 😛

I'm saving up to buy a new helmet when I see the grommets start to go. Debating between an Otny, Coveted, or Protechsport (leaning towards the Protech, because their full Kevlar helmet is <$700 CAD).

Edited by CJ Boiss

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13 hours ago, CJ Boiss said:

I mean, baseball catchers never have to worry about getting cranked on the side of the head. Goalies do. I'm sure those springs do a great job at absorbing impacts that hit the cage square on the front, but how would they stand up to a shot from the side?

This is where I think they need to go back to the drawing board. I got pinged so hard on the side of the head that my ears rang for five minutes and every shot to the dome afterwards rang my ears. Kind of a traumatic experience; so traumatic that I ordered a new helmet hoping for a different outcome for impacts like that. 

My new shell design is temporarily on hold right now as I am testing a new material (polycarbonate from Victory). Thus far I have been impressed by the shock absorption of the material. But I think  that the shape of helmets in general is lacking. One can say “stay square to the puck and you won’t get hurt” all they want, but between skill levels and other “shit happens” factors, we need to get that philosophy out of the equation when it comes to designing equipment. A botched “tic-tac-toe” play by professionals can result in a shot to the side of the head from a broken stick.

But again, I will say this: people should be okay with looking like the Great Gazoo. But I don’t think that day is anywhere near coming.  

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4 hours ago, bunnyman666 said:

But again, I will say this: people should be okay with looking like the Great Gazoo. But I don’t think that day is anywhere near coming.  

I wish I had the ability to mock up some designs... but I don't.

I think a helmet and a cage (new design - not the SK/HM) could do much better. Utilizing shock absorption technology and was designed for goalies to wear.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, MTH said:

I wish I had the ability to mock up some designs... but I don't.

I think a helmet and a cage (new design - not the SK/HM) could do much better. Utilizing shock absorption technology and was designed for goalies to wear.

There actually IS an existing design that could be tweaked and made better with modern design. I really wanted to build a traditional mask and was still futzing with my mould until that side head blast rang my bell. But I am tweaking something completely different that may be coming spring or summer. 

Edited by bunnyman666

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22 hours ago, CJ Boiss said:

I mean, baseball catchers never have to worry about getting cranked on the side of the head. Goalies do. I'm sure those springs do a great job at absorbing impacts that hit the cage square on the front, but how would they stand up to a shot from the side?

Exactly - while the idea is correct, in execution, that setup only protects from straight-on shots to the cage. As the springs are set up to recoil in one direction, a shot to the side of the cage would not be cushioned. Any shot to the shell would transmit through as well as it bypasses the spring mounted cage. No disrespect to the catcher community, they typically have the ball coming straight-on so it works for them.

I posted about my idea for a dual density sweat band in the first page of this thread, which essentially emulates the spring loaded cage, but because it is behind the shell, it doesn't matter if the shot is to the cage or the shell. I am thinking now a good way to employ this would be to replace the section of hard foam in the shell the sweatband typically Velcros to with say a 2" wide strip of resilient rubber/foam. Then you have a dual density system -resilient mask foam and sweatband foam.

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Posted (edited)

I be been using some Poron foam around the area where my cage contacts the mask. Noticeably better than not having it. Would like to get some D30 foam to try it with.

0B78B56C-BB8C-4920-AA41-5CCAD69EDB2F.jpeg

DDE1FABB-8C17-4D1E-8AAD-9CD4EEF2BC95.jpeg

20178C69-A8A8-4D67-A938-872F683CB6D3.jpeg

57AFD2CD-20A5-4B70-86DE-069037500987.jpeg

Edited by Ross
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2 hours ago, Ross said:

I be been using some Poron foam around the area where my cage contacts the mask. Noticeably better than not having it. Would like to get some D30 foam to try it with.

That's a really interesting idea!!

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Ross - love people who try to improve designs. I think you're onto something for sure.

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17 hours ago, Colander said:

Exactly - while the idea is correct, in execution, that setup only protects from straight-on shots to the cage. As the springs are set up to recoil in one direction, a shot to the side of the cage would not be cushioned. Any shot to the shell would transmit through as well as it bypasses the spring mounted cage. No disrespect to the catcher community, they typically have the ball coming straight-on so it works for them.

Good points.

I think the hard shell with just some padding is quite out dated. The reason why a shot to the side of the mask hurts so bad is due to several reasons. 

  1. The concept of a fiberglass shell with some padding between it and you puts the impact too close to your head. You/we need more of a 'crumple zone' between the impact and our bodies. Similar to getting shot at an armored car vs. body armor. Both do the same job (keep bullets out of your body) but the physical toll is vastly different.
  2. The mask is open in the rear of our heads. Because of this, the mask moves and flexes with a shot to the ear area. Heck, the mask moves if you push it against your shoulder. A shell that completely wraps around your head wouldn't be able to push against your head since it would be a solid structure. The mask over our ears is basically a cantilever. Even if the mask had padding completely tight around your ear (bridge over your ear) would help - again, a helmet does this.
  3. 70 year old design. Why are masks open in back? Because that's how they've always been. Same reason why they're still fiberglass all these decades later.
  4. Padding on the side of the head in a mask is too thin. Slim fitting masks are more appealing to players. Not so much the mask's fault, but they make the masks that still pass the mirror test. The mirror test shouldn't even be a factor. (but it always will)
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@Ross You kinda helped me flesh out an idea that has been tumbling around. My thought was to use long visor screws and put the gel/foam between the clamps and shell so the cage floats a bit more. The hardware may need revision, but suspension would help immensely.

Edited by bunnyman666

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^^ While I agree suspending the cage will help - not all shots are to the cage. This is where separating the head from the mask in general works better (yes this was done during take-away-all-the goalie’s-confidence err – warmup). Sorry for the big pic...

image.png

Edited by Colander

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It seems to me a lot of people here are doing a lot of (good) conceptualizing that the mask makers will profit from...

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1 minute ago, Colander said:

It seems to me a lot of people here are doing a lot of (good) conceptualizing that the mask makers will profit from...

I don't think there's much profits to be had. I assume mask makers make more from using an old design forever and maybe updating the foam used.

New designs, new machining, new stuff all costs money.

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48 minutes ago, Colander said:

It seems to me a lot of people here are doing a lot of (good) conceptualizing that the mask makers will profit from...

If fewer of us get hurt, it’s all good.

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55 minutes ago, MTH said:

I don't think there's much profits to be had. I assume mask makers make more from using an old design forever and maybe updating the foam used.

New designs, new machining, new stuff all costs money.

True, but when minor hockey/and or leagues bans goalie masks of a certain date or style because of safety concerns, then people are forced to change - and buy what manufacturers have to offer that meets spec. The year I started playing in net was the first year they banned the super safe Cooper HM7 goalie mask as well as the sturdy SK-100 helmet (below) - lots of parents were scrambling for new stuff. Pretty sure Cooper knew it was coming and had replacements (such as my ultra-strong HM6 polycarbonate alternative with the 1/8 thick foam pads you strategically placed yourself)

image.png.a0f4396b6c80a8d74d15e68d18c42e38.png  image.png.e9fc6546d3aaee6eb887f9b8407e1276.png

Edited by Colander
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On 1/2/2020 at 12:56 PM, MTH said:

Lacrosse helmets are a pretty good design. 

7961e3785358b4fa_small.jpeg

Your head is up in the helmet with the cage not touching your face at all. The helmet only uses a chin strap with 4 snaps to secure your head in the helmet. All the helmets are adjustable in the back. But any shot to your face is transmitted to helmet and not directly to your face. The impact is more spread out.

Lacrosse has a lot of contact to the helmet and face. Between sticks, shoulders and the occasional ball.

As a lacrosse goalie myself I can tell you that lacrosse helmets suck. The way they cage is attached to the chin, when you get hit in the face the plastic bends making the helmet wider and rounder, getting hit in the top of the head hurts a lot. The cages are way to thin. Mine is extremely dented and you can't replace it. My friend took a ball to the eye. They look cool but they are not safe. I much rather stay in my 960.

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