To Profile or Not To Profile...

[DL42]

send it in to a professional and stop  experimenting with  new guys.

 

one less variable to worry about.

 

mail it to no-icing  its liek $7 for a sharpening

[AdamL]

My Step blacksteel for Graf Cowlings just arrived.  Let the profile experimenting begin.

I've been playing in Graf skates basically since I started playing goal.  It's all I've ever known...just call me Carey Price.  I've been tossing around the idea of switching out of the cowling and into a more modern holder, but then that brings up questions like, which one?  What profile should I use?  3mm or 4mm runners?  etc.

For the most part I'm really happy with how I skate on Graf steel, which best I can tell has a 26' radius out of the box based on the writeup about the new Pro Gs on the GoaliesPlus website.  But there are some things I'm not thrilled about.

1. The stock steel looks to be pitched to the rear ever so slightly when put on a flat surface, and we all know it's better to be on the balls of our feet.  The Graf cowlings aren't pitched super forward in the first place.
2. I need to keep a deep hollow on these to feel like I can get powerful pushes, but then that means I have to use a lot of energy to shuffle, especially for small movements.
3. Occasionally I catch an edge coming out of a t-push, I think both because of the deep hollow and because my weight is too far back at times.
4. Considering my V9s have a more traditional boot channel, a little more height would help me have a little more access to the ice, especially pivoting in the RVH, or being able to occasionally keep a wider stance.

The Step steel being taller will be a good initial experiment with being in a taller holder.  After that, I'm trying to find a profile I'm happy with that I can then carry over to the new steel in a XSG, True, or Bauer holder that I'll likely have swapped onto my Graf boots.

Anyway, after a couple e-mails back and forth Bob at No Icing Sports recommended I start with the 20'/32' combo mentioned on the first page of this thread, with a medium forward pitch.  He also suggested I try the A-Trap FBV with 1/2" inside, 5/8" outside, which should help with catching that outside edge when stopping on a t-push.  My first reaction to that 32' rear radius is that I'd expect to feel less mobile in some circumstances vs my current steel, given it's probably 26' front to back.  He insists otherwise, though.  But I'm very tempted to just go for the 15'/20'/28' triple combination, which he described as being for the very aggressive butterfly goaltender.  I'm not great, but I am aggressive. 

Reactions/thoughts welcome, and I look forward to providing some feedback as I figure out what the heck I'm doing.

Edited February 21, 2022 by AdamL

[Chenner29]

7 hours ago, AdamL said:

My Step blacksteel for Graf Cowlings just arrived.  Let the profile experimenting begin.

I've been playing in Graf skates basically since I started playing goal.  It's all I've ever known...just call me Carey Price.  I've been tossing around the idea of switching out of the cowling and into a more modern holder, but then that brings up questions like, which one?  What profile should I use?  3mm or 4mm runners?  etc.

For the most part I'm really happy with how I skate on Graf steel, which best I can tell has a 26' radius out of the box based on the writeup about the new Pro Gs on the GoaliesPlus website.  But there are some things I'm not thrilled about.

1. The stock steel looks to be pitched to the rear ever so slightly when put on a flat surface, and we all know it's better to be on the balls of our feet.  The Graf cowlings aren't pitched super forward in the first place.
2. I need to keep a deep hollow on these to feel like I can get powerful pushes, but then that means I have to use a lot of energy to shuffle, especially for small movements.
3. Occasionally I catch an edge coming out of a t-push, I think both because of the deep hollow and because my weight is too far back at times.
4. Considering my V9s have a more traditional boot channel, a little more height would help me have a little more access to the ice, especially pivoting in the RVH, or being able to occasionally keep a wider stance.

The Step steel being taller will be a good initial experiment with being in a taller holder.  After that, I'm trying to find a profile I'm happy with that I can then carry over to the new steel in a XSG, True, or Bauer holder that I'll likely have swapped onto my Graf boots.

Anyway, after a couple e-mails back and forth Bob at No Icing Sports recommended I start with the 20'/32' combo mentioned on the first page of this thread, with a medium forward pitch.  He also suggested I try the A-Trap FBV with 1/2" inside, 5/8" outside, which should help with catching that outside edge when stopping on a t-push.  My first reaction to that 32' rear radius is that I'd expect to feel less mobile in some circumstances vs my current steel, given it's probably 26' front to back.  He insists otherwise, though.  But I'm very tempted to just go for the 15'/20'/28' triple combination, which he described as being for the very aggressive butterfly goaltender.  I'm not great, but I am aggressive. 

Reactions/thoughts welcome, and I look forward to providing some feedback as I figure out what the heck I'm doing.

IMO if you can see that your steel is pitched back, it's pitched back a lot.  Get that fixed asap

You can try a CAG and tone your ROH down.  The flat spot will help you grab an edge when you need it and it will feel sharper than any other spot on your blade (ie.  if you sharpen at 1/2", the CAG spot will feel sharper than 1/2")

I'm currently on 20'/32' but have been thinking of going to a 27" with a small CAG spot in the center.  I tried 60/120mm but it was too flat and I couldn't pivot.  Grip on the ice was insane though

I'm not a fan of FBV especially when RVH is a part of your game.  You ding your steel too much with it

[AdamL]

11 hours ago, Chenner29 said:

IMO if you can see that your steel is pitched back, it's pitched back a lot.  Get that fixed asap

You can try a CAG and tone your ROH down.  The flat spot will help you grab an edge when you need it and it will feel sharper than any other spot on your blade (ie.  if you sharpen at 1/2", the CAG spot will feel sharper than 1/2")

I'm currently on 20'/32' but have been thinking of going to a 27" with a small CAG spot in the center.  I tried 60/120mm but it was too flat and I couldn't pivot.  Grip on the ice was insane though

I'm not a fan of FBV especially when RVH is a part of your game.  You ding your steel too much with it

I asked Bob about the CAG or SAM options, and he told me most of the goalies he's worked with haven't really liked the flat spot much.  I would lead much more toward mobility than stability too, so I don't think I'll go that route for my first try.  

With a medium-forward pitch, that basically just moves the template back, so more of the blade will be 20' than 32' if I understand how this works correctly.  I think I just convinced myself that's the way I'll go to start.  

And thanks for the note about FBV.  I'm curious to try it but I don't have anyone local who can sharpen them that way, so I'd just end up putting a typical ROH over it anyway unless I want to mail out my steel every time they need a sharpening.  

[Chenner29]

2 hours ago, AdamL said:

I asked Bob about the CAG or SAM options, and he told me most of the goalies he's worked with haven't really liked the flat spot much.  I would lead much more toward mobility than stability too, so I don't think I'll go that route for my first try.  

With a medium-forward pitch, that basically just moves the template back, so more of the blade will be 20' than 32' if I understand how this works correctly.  I think I just convinced myself that's the way I'll go to start.  

And thanks for the note about FBV.  I'm curious to try it but I don't have anyone local who can sharpen them that way, so I'd just end up putting a typical ROH over it anyway unless I want to mail out my steel every time they need a sharpening.  

I didn't mind the 50mm flat spot on the SAM as it's relatively small (1.96 inches), I actually hated the short 10' in front as I could never find stability when loading for a push off the toe.  The 60/120mm (4.7 inches overall!) I had with the CAG was just too much though, felt like I was on skis. I'm thinking there's a happy medium I can engage at somewhere between 50mm and 120mm.

I believe moving the template back is 1/4" for each "setting" - so slight forward is 1/4", medium forward is probably 1/2" overall.  Your Step steel should have markers around center line to show where to line up the template.

IIRC the 20'/32' does have a slight forward pitch to it already?  May want to clarify on that

 

[AdamL]

19 hours ago, Chenner29 said:

I didn't mind the 50mm flat spot on the SAM as it's relatively small (1.96 inches), I actually hated the short 10' in front as I could never find stability when loading for a push off the toe.  The 60/120mm (4.7 inches overall!) I had with the CAG was just too much though, felt like I was on skis. I'm thinking there's a happy medium I can engage at somewhere between 50mm and 120mm.

I believe moving the template back is 1/4" for each "setting" - so slight forward is 1/4", medium forward is probably 1/2" overall.  Your Step steel should have markers around center line to show where to line up the template.

IIRC the 20'/32' does have a slight forward pitch to it already?  May want to clarify on that

 

I've heard the same about the 10' front, especially if you have the habit of pushing off the toe, which I definitely do for small adjustments/slides.  Bigger pushes I think I use the full blade but I still get that last bit of pop off the toe.  Maria's video about the Spry J from Tydan is interesting, it sounds like essentially a SAM profile but with a longer flat spot and a bigger radius on the toe.

Interestingly I did the Tydan profile assessment because I was debating jumping straight into switching out the holder, and they recommended a 55/110 CAG.  So that's a 110mm flat spot with another 55mm in front of and behind the flat spot, correct?  I'm a skate size 7 or 7.5 depending on brand - and the CCM runners (for example) for that size are 266mm.  Those numbers don't add up.    But then that also doesn't address the actual radius itself if I understand how this all works, which means they'd just keep the original radius?  30' probably?  I can't imagine I'd be able to skate in those to save my life. 

That's a good point on the 20'/32' maybe already being pitched forward to some degree, I'll check with Bob before I place the order.  

[Thinline_slim]

SAM - 3/4inch hollow

I am a novice and not a very good skater but I just had mine done a couple of weeks ago. The biggest difference/benefit for me is the flatter radius has given me more stability and glide, which has led to much less fatigue. I don’t get around on the ice very well so any conservation in energy is a plus!

[johncho]

Just got SAM - 1/2"

The Profile definitely helps with skating consistency, I can really feel the difference. I can step with more of the blade during transitions and pushes, so much so that I feel like I should drop to 5/8". 1/2" is almost too much, but just perfect after a few skates in.

[Chenner29]

On 2/23/2022 at 5:48 AM, AdamL said:

I've heard the same about the 10' front, especially if you have the habit of pushing off the toe, which I definitely do for small adjustments/slides.  Bigger pushes I think I use the full blade but I still get that last bit of pop off the toe.  Maria's video about the Spry J from Tydan is interesting, it sounds like essentially a SAM profile but with a longer flat spot and a bigger radius on the toe.

Interestingly I did the Tydan profile assessment because I was debating jumping straight into switching out the holder, and they recommended a 55/110 CAG.  So that's a 110mm flat spot with another 55mm in front of and behind the flat spot, correct?  I'm a skate size 7 or 7.5 depending on brand - and the CCM runners (for example) for that size are 266mm.  Those numbers don't add up.    But then that also doesn't address the actual radius itself if I understand how this all works, which means they'd just keep the original radius?  30' probably?  I can't imagine I'd be able to skate in those to save my life. 

That's a good point on the 20'/32' maybe already being pitched forward to some degree, I'll check with Bob before I place the order.  

Whoa I missed this 6 months ago.  Not sure if you're still playing, but hope things are well

The number in the front is the amount of flat ground in front of blade center, and the number in the rear is the total amount of flat ground into the blade.

In this case, a 55/110 CAG is a 110mm flat spot with 55mm of that in front of blade center.  so a 65/110 would still be a 110mm flat spot, but with 65mm of that in front of blade center.

The rest of the radius stays the same.  So if you kept your original stock profile and added a CAG, the rest of the blade in front of and behind the CAG would be the stock 30'

You could get the 20'/32' or whatever else you want and stick a CAG on it.  That's basically what a Goalie SAM boils down to, (a 10'/27' with a 25/50mm CAG).  The problem with a SAM is that if you want to have it pitched forward, the flat spot moves toward the back of the blade - which doesn't make sense to me

[dreadlocked1]

Can an expert look at or measure my steel to tell me what radius I have from the factory on some decade old Bauer S160s?  I play well in whatever it is (always a 3/8ths cut on the 4mm steel) and am concerned when these finally fail (boot tendon area is ripping) that I may not like the new 3mm steel on these newer skates I have waiting.  I would want to copy what I have unless the steel mm change affects everything else too much.  

[Chenner29]

6 hours ago, dreadlocked1 said:

Can an expert look at or measure my steel to tell me what radius I have from the factory on some decade old Bauer S160s?  I play well in whatever it is (always a 3/8ths cut on the 4mm steel) and am concerned when these finally fail (boot tendon area is ripping) that I may not like the new 3mm steel on these newer skates I have waiting.  I would want to copy what I have unless the steel mm change affects everything else too much.  

IIRC stock Bauer is 30', BUT if you haven't had them re-profiled to that chances are the profile is long gone.  A decade old of sharpenings only and you may be on something like a 20'

Some techs have a tool they can use to measure the amount of ice contact at any given point on the blade.  They'd probably take this off multiple locations to give you the best match possible.

 

 

[AdamL]

20 hours ago, Chenner29 said:

Whoa I missed this 6 months ago.  Not sure if you're still playing, but hope things are well

The number in the front is the amount of flat ground in front of blade center, and the number in the rear is the total amount of flat ground into the blade.

In this case, a 55/110 CAG is a 110mm flat spot with 55mm of that in front of blade center.  so a 65/110 would still be a 110mm flat spot, but with 65mm of that in front of blade center.

The rest of the radius stays the same.  So if you kept your original stock profile and added a CAG, the rest of the blade in front of and behind the CAG would be the stock 30'

You could get the 20'/32' or whatever else you want and stick a CAG on it.  That's basically what a Goalie SAM boils down to, (a 10'/27' with a 25/50mm CAG).  The problem with a SAM is that if you want to have it pitched forward, the flat spot moves toward the back of the blade - which doesn't make sense to me

Thanks man, I'm good. I'm 100% retired from goaltending at this point, but I still pop over here occasionally because who knows why. I just miss being on the ice I guess. Thanks for the response, though. That was exactly the answer I was looking for.