Where's your head at?

[aircanuck]

Asking for a friend...

Said friend just purchased $2000 pads; came with SUPER HYPER MEGA TS-B Slidey Slides with Juus Saros buckle protectors or some nonsense that will be irrelevant by August. Sorry I may have the layout wrong, I drifted in and out when he explained them.

He plays in a sub-par $500 mask that makes his cheeks look like a chipmunk who just found a cache of peanuts. He balks at the idea of upgrading his mask. 

Why does our group seem to skimp out on the brain cases but go nuts for leg cushions? Is there a use in maybe starting from the top of the body and working your way down? 

[bunnyman666]

39 minutes ago, aircanuck said:

Asking for a friend...

Said friend just purchased $2000 pads; came with SUPER HYPER MEGA TS-B Slidey Slides with Juus Saros buckle protectors or some nonsense that will be irrelevant by August. Sorry I may have the layout wrong, I drifted in and out when he explained them.

He plays in a sub-par $500 mask that makes his cheeks look like a chipmunk who just found a cache of peanuts. He balks at the idea of upgrading his mask. 

Why does our group seem to skimp out on the brain cases but go nuts for leg cushions? Is there a use in maybe starting from the top of the body and working your way down? 

LOL I have only paid full price for leg pads ONCE. As far as helmets go, I REFUSE to skimp. 

[Ken35]

There are only three pieces of my equipment that I refuse to purchase used.  My mask (Otny), My jock (Vaughn double cup) and my skates (Bauer S190's).  Other than that I will usually try to find a bargain for the rest.  My pads and blocker have been through the war and back but were a good deal ($600 about 5 or so years ago), my Passau C&A I picked up well used off of a buy and sell site.  I did buy my current pants brand new but had been wearing well worn used pants prior to that.  I have gone through about 4 or 5 trappers until I found my current one, which was well used before I got it.  That being said I cannot say I have never purchased a used mask or skates but from now on I would prefer to purchase all those items brand new if at all possible.

I am never sure why people will spend $3,000-$5,000 on the rest of their equipment but spend less than $500 on a mask.  I prefer to know that I will be able to go to work the next day without any complications from using a cheap mask and the results that may come from that.

Unfortunately or fortunately for me my head is an awkward shape so most off the shelf masks do not work for me.  This means I get to work with mask makers that I want to when it comes time to replace masks.

[mr_shifty1982]

There are all sorts of factots to look at. When I started playing I bought a Bauer nme7 which was around 400 at that time and it served me well with no issues and sure at that time I was playing in a lower level but no issues. If some guys feel protected that's fine. Same can be said about neck guards, guys will blow 150 on a custom set and I'm willing to wear a $40 Bauer Vapors or CCMs. I don't think one is better than the other, personal preference. 

I have upgraded my mask thought to a Bauer Xpm960. 

[aircanuck]

Therein lies the rub. I hear that a lot..."I was playing at a lower level".

Do you know an unskilled 220lb body in motion exerts the same forces as a 220lb skilled body in motion? In fact, the unskilled body may be less likely to avoid you. Sometimes there just isn't a way to prevent a head injury, but maybe we should be doing the absolute best to keep the odds in our favour.

If you think the sticker on the back of the mask is going to hack it, think again. 

[jayluv54]

22 hours ago, aircanuck said:

Asking for a friend...

Said friend just purchased $2000 pads; came with SUPER HYPER MEGA TS-B Slidey Slides with Juus Saros buckle protectors or some nonsense that will be irrelevant by August. Sorry I may have the layout wrong, I drifted in and out when he explained them.

He plays in a sub-par $500 mask that makes his cheeks look like a chipmunk who just found a cache of peanuts. He balks at the idea of upgrading his mask. 

Why does our group seem to skimp out on the brain cases but go nuts for leg cushions? Is there a use in maybe starting from the top of the body and working your way down? 

I see hundreds of people every weekend riding $10K dirt bikes with $150 ABS helmets on.  I've even had people come up to me ask me why I wear a $700 helmet when I'm not a pro or anything close to it...I tell them that's EXACTLY why I wear a $700 helmet.  It takes a few seconds, but it sinks in eventually.  You can't fix stupid.

Same thing applies to hockey...I wear the best gear I can afford because I'm not a pro...sometimes my positioning sucks and some days I'm tired from working a real job and with a 10:50 PM game time, I might be a little slow reaction wise and can't avoid getting hit with pucks in bad places.  I still have to get up and go to work the next day.  

[cwarnar]

Its an interesting question... Herein lies my issue... You have pros (granted they face pro level shooters) wearing top of the line, often custom made, masks.  They are still having issues around concussions and head injuries (cumulative effects to be sure).

As rec/beer league goalies do the same high level masks protect us any better???  Who knows.

I've always made a point of having a "higher end" mask (Stacey Mach10H and now a SportMask Pro 3) for the simple fact of offering max protection for my most important part.

The rub with gear is... how many headshots do you take?  Most shots (I would say 80%) hit pads or gloves.  Guys want those to be high level as well due to the sheer number of shots or conversely stingers they get.

Protect your investment... Seeing guys in NME3 or plastic equivalent masks is pure insanity.

[coopaloop1234]

One of my buddies has recently got into goaltending. Bought a bunch of used gear, helmet included. It's some Itech mask, similar build as the XPM's but older and not very good quality.

I've been coaching him through gear and what to look for and other little tidbits, one thing he asked about was masks and how good his was. I told him to grab the chin of the mask and squeeze it in one hand while taking a video. His mask was about as flexible as you could imagine. I immediately sent him a video of the same test but with my Bauer C2 and VTX. C2 had a little give (mid level) and the VTX has almost none (high end).

He was pretty taken back at the difference and is working his way to getting a decent mask. I think a lot of guys, especially newer goalies, or goalies playing in lower tiers, don't fully understand how lacking in protection some of these cheaper masks are. Either that or they just don't care as they see it as "good enough".

[Colander]

1 hour ago, coopaloop1234 said:

...He was pretty taken back at the difference and is working his way to getting a decent mask. I think a lot of guys, especially newer goalies, or goalies playing in lower tiers, don't fully understand how lacking in protection some of these cheaper masks are. Either that or they just don't care as they see it as "good enough".

I agree with this statement, but... I think caution has to be taken as well because in general in this thread, there is an equation being made between cost and safety. Yes, there are some well-known cheaper "widowmakers" out there, but, my Hackva was ~$350 6 years ago - does that mean a ~$1000 helmet is close to 3X as protective. Well, first off that would require us to define quantities for safeness and protective.  I would say the level of protection is similar but the cost difference is due to the weight difference (which IMO is actually less safe).

I think more to the point the comment made by @aircanuck that it "makes his [friend's] cheeks look like a chipmunk who just found a cache of peanuts" is more important - without good fit, the protection is not there, doesn't matter what you paid.

[coopaloop1234]

21 minutes ago, Colander said:

I agree with this statement, but... I think caution has to be taken as well because in general in this thread, there is an equation being made between cost and safety. Yes, there are some well-known cheaper "widowmakers" out there, but, my Hackva was ~$350 6 years ago - does that mean a ~$1000 helmet is close to 3X as protective. Well, first off that would require us to define quantities for safeness and protective.  I would say the level of protection is similar but the cost difference is due to the weight difference (which IMO is actually less safe).

I think more to the point the comment made by @aircanuck that it "makes his [friend's] cheeks look like a chipmunk who just found a cache of peanuts" is more important - without good fit, the protection is not there, doesn't matter what you paid.

And you're absolutely right. Fit is extremely important.

But there is a pretty decent correlation between price and protection and it's a great way for guys new to the position to see the varying levels of protection they can get. By showing them the off the shelf comparisons between the $250, $500, and $1000 masks, you can get them to see that mask discussion is far more nuanced than they initially believe and use it as a stepping stone into proper guidelines for properly being safe while playing goal.

Price isn't the end all of discussion, but it is a real simple one to get things started.

[wox33]

It's also tough since there is no real baseline for what the absolute best is. Different mask makers/companies will say whatever material they are using is the best since at the end of the day they want to sell you their specific mask. There's also the discussion of what's more important: the shell or the foam inside of it. Fit is also a major component that gets overlooked most of the time. There really needs to be a better governing board outside of the current one that is running all the different masks through a battery of tests to find out what really is the safest for people's heads. No way is going to be perfect but now that concussions and their lasting repercussions are in the forefront it would be nice if some of the mask misinformation could be weeded out and some kind of standard created to make mask purchasing more about getting the fit right as opposed to be concerned that the materials aren't going to leave you in the hospital.

[itis121]

I used to rock an itech widow maker for 10 years, 2 years rep in. But that was minor hockey and what my parents can afford, which can be a different story.

After my first Beer league game and 3 continuous slap shots to the face is when I actually did research on whats the best mask to get. Found forums like this to be helpful and got a concept C1 when they got discontinued and on sale for a reasonable price.

[mr_shifty1982]

https://youtu.be/O2-szAZ6_SU

Happens to the best of us. 

[aircanuck]

Independent testing sticks out to me here. Testing to provide a benchmark where you know what to expect when you take a biscuit to various parts of the mask, as well as a few different types of side impact results could be very useful to the players shopping for masks.

Football helmets are tested and ranked. The data is available to the consumer. Are we not worthy of this?

[CJ Boiss]

2 hours ago, mr_shifty1982 said:

https://youtu.be/O2-szAZ6_SU

Happens to the best of us. 

Bishop doesn't have a chin cup in his mask. If he did, that never would've happened.

[Colander]

3 hours ago, aircanuck said:

Independent testing sticks out to me here. Testing to provide a benchmark where you know what to expect when you take a biscuit to various parts of the mask, as well as a few different types of side impact results could be very useful to the players shopping for masks.

Football helmets are tested and ranked. The data is available to the consumer. Are we not worthy of this?

#goaliesheadsmatter

[ULTIMA]

I'll summarize the answer.

When it comes to  masks, there are 3 kinds of goalies out there:

1) Those who learn the easy way (don't take chances when it comes to their head)

2) Those who learn the hard way (cheap out and decide to upgrade only after injury)

3) Those who learn the very hard way (never purchased something protective, forced to retire and were never heard from again)

[southpawtendy48]

Unfortunately I did the thing where I got a full custom set but didn’t make sure with my helmet, ended up looking at OTNY and the size was 19’ thru 23’ or something but like that.. I thought that was a bit strange, I probably should’ve been more careful with the sizing for sure, but as time went by there was a huge chip in the top of the mask from a shot. It was a pretty hard shot but I’ve taken hard shots to my Warwick and it was no problem... big difference between a $700 helmet and a $1000 helmet I guess... 

[coopaloop1234]

15 hours ago, CJ Boiss said:

Bishop doesn't have a chin cup in his mask. If he did, that never would've happened.

He does now but back then he only used a chin sling.

[big seven o]

If there's one piece of equipment you don't want to go cheap on, it's the mask. For me, before I got my current mask there were times I honestly wasn't confident in my mask and was afraid of high shots hitting me in the head. It really started to affect my game. Despite not suffering any injuries, I still upgraded and couldn't be happier. 

[Korppi32]

On 4/28/2019 at 10:01 PM, aircanuck said:

He plays in a sub-par $500 mask that makes his cheeks look like a chipmunk who just found a cache of peanuts. He balks at the idea of upgrading his mask.  

A chipmunk? 

No chipmunk? 

One big problem is a beer leaguer who buy an expensive mask which is too comfy or (s)he trust too much fitting guide -> playing with too big mask. I bet there is some goalie who has "little extra" in cheeks, nothing to do with right mask fit.

[#16]

Is it just me or is Binnington's cage dented on the bar above his eyes?

[TheGoalNet]

@aircanuck - Love this dialog. Here’s my take on it. 

1. As you eluded to, we have absolutely 0 data on Helmets. We have no independent testing to validate that a 960 XPM is better than 940. Imagine if everything we thought about helmets was wrong! That in itself is a problem. The NHL and VT are supposed to be releasing goalie mask data. Who knows what that will look like and if this tests properly capture both the effects of a clapper or an elbow. 

2. None of this stuff will come fast enough, but I will be SHOCKED if head scanners are not stores within 5 years. Companies will take the same logic applied to the custom skates and apply it to helmets. RXS in Switzerland is already doing this for goalie masks. Hexo bike helmets is doing this in the UK for bespoke cycling helmets. If every decent shop has a head scanner then AI can recommend a proper helmet model and size. That will fix the chipmunk issue pretty quick. 

3. Why don’t people want to upgrade their mask? I think that’s a 2 part answer. A, the industry hasn’t really evolved the mask that much since the Itech 960 was launched. Cowlingless skates are 5 years old and no kid wants a skate with cowling anymore and 80% of pros don’t use a cowling anymore. Bauer finally cracked the code on a good composite with the NXG and foam cores are dying a rapid death. Foam cores held their throne since the early 90s? When the companies finally make a better mask that instantly recognizable as better, it will make people want to upgrade. B, For people that are not into gear, they probably  assume all helmets with a HECC or CSA sticker are safe. As a more expensive helmet has no “performance” benefit to it, it’s the easiest place to skimp. Cowlinliness skates make me push faster, new pads will make me slide faster, and a new stick will make me sauce better. For a lot of goalies, fresh pillows are sexy and a mask is not.  Doesn't make it right, but it is the truth.

4. When it comes to mask protection, some mask companies think its all about the shell, others think is the construction, some focus on materials, others cater to consumers who want the lightest, and lastly there’s the idea of better padding. This ties back to point 1. We have no way to quantify which approach or which concepts are most important. As the industry is all over the place about what’s best, it limits progress. If everyone got on the same page that these are the “3 most important things for safety”, I think we’d see some innovation real quick. Everyone would play off each other’s designs and things would get going. 

5. This is going to offend people... but stop buying fake (aka clone) masks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Every time you buy a fake 960, Harrison, etc you’re just reinforcing that this is what consumers want and encouraging companies to do this. If we collectively stopped buying them tomorrow, it would force small companies to come up with original designs. Original designs yield innovation... 

[aircanuck]

18 hours ago, Korppi32 said:

A chipmunk? 

One big problem is a beer leaguer who buy an expensive mask which is too comfy or (s)he trust too much fitting guide -> playing with too big mask. I bet there is some goalie who has "little extra" in cheeks, nothing to do with right mask fit.

Actually it does have something to do with mask fit. If your cheeks are wedged in behind a piece of foam so tightly that it overflows into the cage opening, it may feel "tight and dialed in" but, you have a problem. When you get hit from the side, the forces have nowhere to travel but straight into your jaw and throughout your head. A little bit of space in the right places can be  a good thing. I may have a bunch of letters after my name but the people that explained this concept to me had far more letters after their names. I was humbled. By design, my cheeks do not even make contact with my mask, other masks do. Definitely an item worth examining more closely. 

I've spent months now educating myself reading concussion / head protection articles along with visiting testing labs at both the academic and commercial level; I've only scratched the surface. The numerous advances in lab impact recreation and data that can be obtained is astounding. The problem is, you're dealing with an industry that is very resistant to change and that if money is lost in producing these changes, it becomes difficult to justify. The other item that was explained to me is that unless you can lock someone's head completely in place (ie. auto racing head restraints), it is going to be impossible to completely eliminate concussions from our sport. We've accepted some risk at our end, I understand that. We just want to minimize all risk within the confines of our equipment requirements.  

If you wanted to test football masks, there exists millions of dollars worth of grants available to those willing to pursue it. However, football has faced far more dire consequences with head contact. However, the price on conducting tests on goalie masks is quite miniscule if you consider the consequences it could have. 

As @TheGoalNet (tremendous post, btw) has spoken to, the stickers placed on the back of masks give you a pretty good assurance that you won't die due to objects to the head or contact with the ice. After that, place your bets. I'm in the twilight of my playing years, yet I still have to endure goalies at beer league level getting dropped by shots at the other end of the rink while looking snazzy in their new XXX  pads. Something is amiss. 

[TheGoalNet]

17 minutes ago, aircanuck said:

Actually it does have something to do with mask fit. If your cheeks are wedged in behind a piece of foam so tightly that it overflows into the cage opening, it may feel "tight and dialed in" but, you have a problem. When you get hit from the side, the forces have nowhere to travel but straight into your jaw and throughout your head. A little bit of space in the right places can be  a good thing. I may have a bunch of letters after my name but the people that explained this concept to me had far more letters after their names. I was humbled. By design, my cheeks do not even make contact with my mask, other masks do. Definitely an item worth examining more closely. 

I've spent months now educating myself reading concussion / head protection articles along with visiting testing labs at both the academic and commercial level; I've only scratched the surface. The numerous advances in lab impact recreation and data that can be obtained is astounding. The problem is, you're dealing with an industry that is very resistant to change and that if money is lost in producing these changes, it becomes difficult to justify. The other item that was explained to me is that unless you can lock someone's head completely in place (ie. auto racing head restraints), it is going to be impossible to completely eliminate concussions from our sport. We've accepted some risk at our end, I understand that. We just want to minimize all risk within the confines of our equipment requirements.  

If you wanted to test football masks, there exists millions of dollars worth of grants available to those willing to pursue it. However, football has faced far more dire consequences with head contact. However, the price on conducting tests on goalie masks is quite miniscule if you consider the consequences it could have. 

As @TheGoalNet (tremendous post, btw) has spoken to, the stickers placed on the back of masks give you a pretty good assurance that you won't die due to objects to the head or contact with the ice. After that, place your bets. I'm in the twilight of my playing years, yet I still have to endure goalies at beer league level getting dropped by shots at the other end of the rink while looking snazzy in their new XXX  pads. Something is amiss. 

I play lunch time pick up once a week. I got with 1-2 guys from team. I'm usually the only goalie and it ends up being 4-4 half ice for 1 hr our so.

At the begging, I try to grab 1 end for 10 mins with my buddies do a couple drills. This is to warm me up, practice something, and most importantly test new gear in a controlled way. There's another out for people not involved in our warm up to shoot out and we start the "game" on time. DUUUUUUUdddddeeeee... I cannot tell you how many times a guy comes down out of no where, just thinks hes entitled to a mid circles slap shot and just shoots on me in the middle of our drill! It amazing and how I usually get pucks in weird places.