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Thinking of trying standup instead of the modern game


bunnyman666

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I spent a lot of time with Jim Park during my AAA and Junior years. Summers, winters, Jim had me at my best. I have a ton of respect for him and his coaching delivery. I've slowly dropped the skate/kick saves from the repertoire, but when someone is cutting across glove to stick side, my brain still thinks it makes a ton of sense. Jay in the second video was often my training partner, I'd come in from out of town and be paired up with him. Nice guy :)

Jim actually spoke  with a few of my team coaches in the 90s because they were so angry that I was using the butterfly so much. I often wonder what he thinks of some of the new styles.   Neat to see people still finding value in his coaching, it really was THAT good!

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The four main camps I did back in the day were Rick Heinz, Jim Park, FuturePro, and Gdi (when Ian Clark ran it when he was with Vancouver). While I think GDI was without a doubt the best camp ever in terms of preparing you for a pro/college career, each camp had certain things that always rang true to me and still do to this day. The biggest thing from each of these camp that everyone, especially standup styles, should remember is that the stick is truly what should be making the save whenever the puck is on the ice. Your pad or skate are always supposed to be the back up in case you miss with the stick. This seems to be one thing that 90% of goalies, regardless of level of play, seem to forget. It is almost nonexistent on the nhl anymore which is sad. Everyone is relying so much on the pad to kick out these huge rebounds where as if you used your stick it would be directed into the corner the majority of the time. As a stand up guy this should be essential to your game. The Jim park videos hit this point very well if I remember correctly. 

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16 hours ago, kyledjean said:

The four main camps I did back in the day were Rick Heinz, Jim Park, FuturePro, and Gdi (when Ian Clark ran it when he was with Vancouver). While I think GDI was without a doubt the best camp ever in terms of preparing you for a pro/college career, each camp had certain things that always rang true to me and still do to this day. The biggest thing from each of these camp that everyone, especially standup styles, should remember is that the stick is truly what should be making the save whenever the puck is on the ice. Your pad or skate are always supposed to be the back up in case you miss with the stick. This seems to be one thing that 90% of goalies, regardless of level of play, seem to forget. It is almost nonexistent on the nhl anymore which is sad. Everyone is relying so much on the pad to kick out these huge rebounds where as if you used your stick it would be directed into the corner the majority of the time. As a stand up guy this should be essential to your game. The Jim park videos hit this point very well if I remember correctly. 

Yes- the stick is VERY MUCH the MOST important part of saving the goal.

My stick is very active. So many times at the S&P I play in, the poke cheque ruins these kids chances who try the fifty deke moves penalty shots. Even the cocky little brats who got a few in on me will try the cutesy moves end up with the puck in the corner, or hitting them in the shins (especially if they are dumb enough to play S&P in their shorts, hoodie, helmet and gloves). Many don’t know how to react to a poke cheque. 

I have found when I am already down that the stick can pick off a pass from the corner. What good is having a stick if you don’t use it?

If I ever get around to building my stick,  the shaft will get an additional layer of kevlar tape. Why? ‘cos my stick shaft makes a few saves.

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1 hour ago, bunnyman666 said:

Yes- the stick is VERY MUCH the MOST important part of saving the goal.

My stick is very active. So many times at the S&P I play in, the poke cheque ruins these kids chances who try the fifty deke moves penalty shots. Even the cocky little brats who got a few in on me will try the cutesy moves end up with the puck in the corner, or hitting them in the shins (especially if they are dumb enough to play S&P in their shorts, hoodie, helmet and gloves). Many don’t know how to react to a poke cheque. 

I have found when I am already down that the stick can pick off a pass from the corner. What good is having a stick if you don’t use it?

If I ever get around to building my stick,  the shaft will get an additional layer of kevlar tape. Why? ‘cos my stick shaft makes a few saves.

serious question:  do Canadians spell "check" cheque always?  or only when it refers to a negotiable instrument like a bank cheque?

Because I'd think a poke check is more like "hey, check her out" rather than "I'm going to cash the cheque."  Pardon my ignorance and no offense intended, I've just never seen it written as "poke cheque".

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5 minutes ago, jeff da goalie said:

serious question:  do Canadians spell "check" cheque always?  or only when it refers to a negotiable instrument like a bank cheque?

Because I'd think a poke check is more like "hey, check her out" rather than "I'm going to cash the cheque."  Pardon my ignorance and no offense intended, I've just never seen it written as "poke cheque".

Most likely my spellcheck as it is for UK English, not US English. Force of habit, as well. 

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Actually, it was an American ( @bunnyman666 )who used it in the form "cheque". I think most people (be it north or south of the border) use "check" for both terms, although I agree that a "cheque" is used to pay a bill. Of course there was the old joke (during the 72 Canada Cup series) that if Hlinka ever got laid out you could yell out "cancelled Czech"!

Now, toque that's a different matter!

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2 minutes ago, Colander said:

Actually, it was an American ( @bunnyman666 )who used it in the form "cheque". I think most people (be it north or south of the border) use "check" for both terms, although I agree that a "cheque" is used to pay a bill. Of course there was the old joke (during the 72 Canada Cup series) that if Hlinka ever got laid out you could yell out "cancelled Czech"!

Now, toque that's a different matter!

American of British extraction who went to both American and English schools.

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So of course this thread now has me more actively looking for a set of old school pads...

Can anyone provide any insight into the sizing differences between 90s era pads and modern pads? If I’m a 34” in just about every brand today, would I want to look for something roughly 34”? Or were there any big differences?

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1 hour ago, Punisher Goalie said:

So of course this thread now has me more actively looking for a set of old school pads...

Can anyone provide any insight into the sizing differences between 90s era pads and modern pads? If I’m a 34” in just about every brand today, would I want to look for something roughly 34”? Or were there any big differences?

I wear a 32. It literally sits on my leg where a 32+1” sits. Of course that  is a pair of settled-in deer hair/foam mix pads.

A lot of Brian’s from mid 90s on are old school design with foam noodle stuffing. Much less water soaking than deer hair. They settle slightly less than deer hair. 

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6 hours ago, Punisher Goalie said:

So of course this thread now has me more actively looking for a set of old school pads...

Can anyone provide any insight into the sizing differences between 90s era pads and modern pads? If I’m a 34” in just about every brand today, would I want to look for something roughly 34”? Or were there any big differences?

I am currently wearing a pair of 36 Vaughn epics purchased in the summer of 05. Haven’t even worn them a full season yet. Though they have sat around. When I tried new pads on I am a 32 maybe 33 in stock warrior gear. Ccm, Brian’s, and current Vaughn I found I was in a 31. I found Bauer mediums to be the best fit for me. My current set up has my knee towards the bottom of the cradle. Back then there wasn’t  any plus measurements. If I was you i would look at least one if not two inches bigger. But that’s just my take. Also 90’s early 2000’s pads are very very different than the modern pads. Be prepared for a huge weight and width difference. I was very very shocked when I went into peranis and found that I went from one of the biggest senior pads at the time to pretty much getting away with a intermediate pad now (minus Bauer). FYI I am 5”8 and my angle to shin is between 16-17”. It is definitely worth trying on a few before pulling the trigger on something so different from what you are probably used to.

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9 hours ago, kyledjean said:

I am currently wearing a pair of 36 Vaughn epics purchased in the summer of 05. Haven’t even worn them a full season yet. Though they have sat around. When I tried new pads on I am a 32 maybe 33 in stock warrior gear. Ccm, Brian’s, and current Vaughn I found I was in a 31. I found Bauer mediums to be the best fit for me. My current set up has my knee towards the bottom of the cradle. Back then there wasn’t  any plus measurements. If I was you i would look at least one if not two inches bigger. But that’s just my take. Also 90’s early 2000’s pads are very very different than the modern pads. Be prepared for a huge weight and width difference. I was very very shocked when I went into peranis and found that I went from one of the biggest senior pads at the time to pretty much getting away with a intermediate pad now (minus Bauer). FYI I am 5”8 and my angle to shin is between 16-17”. It is definitely worth trying on a few before pulling the trigger on something so different from what you are probably used to.

Thanks, very helpful. Yeah I’m getting the sense just from browsing that sizing has sort of been all over the place, particularly since the older materials settle so much. If I can find something on the cheap I think it would be a fun experiment then go the custom/Kenesky route down the road. 

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2 hours ago, Punisher Goalie said:

Thanks, very helpful. Yeah I’m getting the sense just from browsing that sizing has sort of been all over the place, particularly since the older materials settle so much. If I can find something on the cheap I think it would be a fun experiment then go the custom/Kenesky route down the road. 

Only other thing I would mention is, there is a reason they don't make pads that way anymore. Kinda a step backwards in terms of play-ability. They are very very heavy in comparison, rebounds are very very soft, and they don't slide sometimes at all, and they soak up water depending on how far you go back. Going from Mckenney pads from in 02 to the epics in 05 was crazy different, for me it was like there was no water retention, they were significantly "lighter" and could slide so much more. Just be careful what you ask for. Personally I can't wait to get new pads.

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26 minutes ago, kyledjean said:

Only other thing I would mention is, there is a reason they don't make pads that way anymore. Kinda a step backwards in terms of play-ability. They are very very heavy in comparison, rebounds are very very soft, and they don't slide sometimes at all, and they soak up water depending on how far you go back. Going from Mckenney pads from in 02 to the epics in 05 was crazy different, for me it was like there was no water retention, they were significantly "lighter" and could slide so much more. Just be careful what you ask for. Personally I can't wait to get new pads.

The old school pads are for the old style. Yes- there have been a few, namely a guy who was on the Flames and still plays in Europe who has a truly hybrid pad with real knee rolls. It was branded Koho here, but CCM in Europe. 

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My D&R LG55s are 12 lbs each dry and @kyledjean, they do soak up water and snow. Sliding isn't very good at all in them and to get across, you have to push with your skates while on your feet, which gets us into the whole how do you sharpen your skates issue. However, with the weight and sliding deals aside, I don't know how modern guys play with pads giving up "hot" rebounds. I know that's the approach and that's fine - I don't have the wherewithal to critique good or bad that concept - but I like 2 or 3 foot rebounds. Much easier to freeze or clear away.

My suggestion would be that if someone is going to try and take a more standup approach, don't overwhelm yourself with big old time pillows. They are significantly different than modern ones. I tried the converse: using modern pillows and not only couldn't I stop a beach ball, but my hips killed me for about a week. There's a balance to find between changing things up and still being able to enjoy the game.

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26 minutes ago, Fullright said:

My D&R LG55s are 12 lbs each dry and @kyledjean, they do soak up water and snow. Sliding isn't very good at all in them and to get across, you have to push with your skates while on your feet, which gets us into the whole how do you sharpen your skates issue. However, with the weight and sliding deals aside, I don't know how modern guys play with pads giving up "hot" rebounds. I know that's the approach and that's fine - I don't have the wherewithal to critique good or bad that concept - but I like 2 or 3 foot rebounds. Much easier to freeze or clear away.

My suggestion would be that if someone is going to try and take a more standup approach, don't overwhelm yourself with big old time pillows. They are significantly different than modern ones. I tried the converse: using modern pillows and not only couldn't I stop a beach ball, but my hips killed me for about a week. There's a balance to find between changing things up and still being able to enjoy the game.

Exactly.

I am a constant tinkerer. If I were truly serious, I would run what I brung and forget it! I also have an idea for rules that will be for a tournament I am helping put together. The rules would also entail no composite sticks, as well.

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41 minutes ago, Fullright said:

My D&R LG55s are 12 lbs each dry and @kyledjean, they do soak up water and snow. Sliding isn't very good at all in them and to get across, you have to push with your skates while on your feet, which gets us into the whole how do you sharpen your skates issue. However, with the weight and sliding deals aside, I don't know how modern guys play with pads giving up "hot" rebounds. I know that's the approach and that's fine - I don't have the wherewithal to critique good or bad that concept - but I like 2 or 3 foot rebounds. Much easier to freeze or clear away.

My suggestion would be that if someone is going to try and take a more standup approach, don't overwhelm yourself with big old time pillows. They are significantly different than modern ones. I tried the converse: using modern pillows and not only couldn't I stop a beach ball, but my hips killed me for about a week. There's a balance to find between changing things up and still being able to enjoy the game.

The concept with hot rebounds is that they are out of danger quick. most guys now stand back door constantly, a 2-3 rebound allows them to get it and score without interference from d. Having the rebound hot and out, gives you more time to set up and react, less time for the shooter to set up, and gets it out of the danger zone. In todays game, those 2-3 foot rebounds seem to be extremely dangerous. The game has changed exponentially from the days of Brock and Deer Hair where you wanted the puck deadened. Think of it like this, why make yourself do the extra work of having to reach and freeze or scramble and clear when you can have the puck just shoot way back out and give you a little time to adjust or have your forwards clear it. I also found that with trying on newer pads I, personally, found i had less pain in the knees and hips, along with having a wider butterfly. Less weight in the pad allows you to play longer with less chance of injury also. You technically should still be able to play stand up with "most" modern pads, though I would avoid any offset toes for the kicksaves sake. Warrior RGT2 seem like they might work well for a stand up game, can always take the toe ties out and replace with laces. I wouldn't go much older than 2004 pads, unless you are really really sure you will be comfortable. 

As far as skate sharpening goes, as I got more competitive and older I went from 1' to 1/2' finally to 3/8'. I like really really grippy skates. I never had trouble shuffling with the 3/8' and I would never go back to anything wider. If you find yourself having trouble shuffling, definitely get a sliding board and work on your quad strength. 5-10 minutes a day can do wonders for your endurance and strength. 

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Hi All:

Just to put in a few of my own cents (note, not “sense”) in:

@bunnyman666 and @kyledjean you guys are spot on IMO about the use of the stick. It seems with being able to build a wall with your pads in the b-fly, the proper use of the stick is a lost art (I specifically used the word art here – more to come). I read a lot here about people who get the thinnest, lightest pads possible and then complain because either their pads don’t seal completely along the upper edges when in the b-fly or the puck has managed to force its way through the ½” of padding thickness they have in that area. I also see guys dropping into the b-fly and flipping their stick up and out of the way as if the pads and not the stick should be your first line of defense. First, if you have flexi pads or they don’t seal and the top or along the ice, that’s where the stick comes in!!! Not only does it block the puck, you can steer it away as well. And for anyone who says you don’t need it with modern pads, consider that when you flip your stick off the ice you are also pulling you blocker out of position, especially with regard to sealing up close to the body. Along the same lines, I play against a goalie who is a master artist at proactive stick-work. Half the scoring chances that might have been generated by back-doors or cross-crease passes at his net are nullified before they start because of his incredible ability to block them (and yes, I am really jealous of this skill).

As far as hot rebounds are concerned, I suspect for people like @Fullright and I (and I suspect @Wonder35 - congrats at still being in the net BTW!), who remember when dirt was new, we were always taught kicking the puck away was bad goaltending form as with horsehide pads, it put rebounds right in harm’s way. With the new pads, this is an option, but having said that, I always go back to my first instincts which is to direct the rebound to a corner as opposed to putting it out where the forwards can drop on it like a shark in a feeding frenzy. Same thing with corralling a short rebound – it allows me to control the play, freezing it if need be or swiping it aside to a D who is hopefully paying attention (unfortunately this is not the case that often).

My experience has become a blend of these styles and truly a hybrid. I started off as standup in the mid-70s and upon my return ~ 7 years ago I have been gradually trying to integrate a lot of the b-fly stuff. I try to have a broad repertoire as I need all the help I can get. And yes, at my age it can be pretty tough on the hips.

One thing I being mentioned here that I am a bit confused about it is there seems to be the idea that you need to use “old –school” equipment to play stand-up style. I actually came from Cooper horse-hide pads in the ‘70s to Vaughn V2s in 2012 to Brian’s Sub-zeros in the last year. I still have stand-up in my repertoire – the pads don’t really make too much of a difference in that matter (although if you are going to start making skate saves, I suggest you see Fullright about the leather shelled Tacks he showed in a different thread).

Finally I want to clarify that, despite what people think when they see me in net, standup for me is a style, not a form of comedy, although I believe there are many who would argue they are one and the same.

TL;DR? Do what you want, have fun and since you paid good money for it, don’t forget to use your stick

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41 minutes ago, Colander said:

Hi All:

Just to put in a few of my own cents (note, not “sense”) in:

@bunnyman666 and @kyledjean you guys are spot on IMO about the use of the stick. It seems with being able to build a wall with your pads in the b-fly, the proper use of the stick is a lost art (I specifically used the word art here – more to come). I read a lot here about people who get the thinnest, lightest pads possible and then complain because either their pads don’t seal completely along the upper edges when in the b-fly or the puck has managed to force its way through the ½” of padding thickness they have in that area. I also see guys dropping into the b-fly and flipping their stick up and out of the way as if the pads and not the stick should be your first line of defense. First, if you have flexi pads or they don’t seal and the top or along the ice, that’s where the stick comes in!!! Not only does it block the puck, you can steer it away as well. And for anyone who says you don’t need it with modern pads, consider that when you flip your stick off the ice you are also pulling you blocker out of position, especially with regard to sealing up close to the body. Along the same lines, I play against a goalie who is a master artist at proactive stick-work. Half the scoring chances that might have been generated by back-doors or cross-crease passes at his net are nullified before they start because of his incredible ability to block them (and yes, I am really jealous of this skill).

As far as hot rebounds are concerned, I suspect for people like @Fullright and I (and I suspect @Wonder35 - congrats at still being in the net BTW!), who remember when dirt was new, we were always taught kicking the puck away was bad goaltending form as with horsehide pads, it put rebounds right in harm’s way. With the new pads, this is an option, but having said that, I always go back to my first instincts which is to direct the rebound to a corner as opposed to putting it out where the forwards can drop on it like a shark in a feeding frenzy. Same thing with corralling a short rebound – it allows me to control the play, freezing it if need be or swiping it aside to a D who is hopefully paying attention (unfortunately this is not the case that often).

My experience has become a blend of these styles and truly a hybrid. I started off as standup in the mid-70s and upon my return ~ 7 years ago I have been gradually trying to integrate a lot of the b-fly stuff. I try to have a broad repertoire as I need all the help I can get. And yes, at my age it can be pretty tough on the hips.

One thing I being mentioned here that I am a bit confused about it is there seems to be the idea that you need to use “old –school” equipment to play stand-up style. I actually came from Cooper horse-hide pads in the ‘70s to Vaughn V2s in 2012 to Brian’s Sub-zeros in the last year. I still have stand-up in my repertoire – the pads don’t really make too much of a difference in that matter (although if you are going to start making skate saves, I suggest you see Fullright about the leather shelled Tacks he showed in a different thread).

Finally I want to clarify that, despite what people think when they see me in net, standup for me is a style, not a form of comedy, although I believe there are many who would argue they are one and the same.

TL;DR? Do what you want, have fun and since you paid good money for it, don’t forget to use your stick

I will say that on more than one occasion, the new hot rebound pads are starting to be used as one timer trainers. So my jury is out on super hot rebounds. To kick them, yes.

In the end, the stand up pads may be used as a training aid and to break monotony. Who knows where the experiment may end. It may end quickly...

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2 hours ago, Colander said:

Hi All:

Just to put in a few of my own cents (note, not “sense”) in:

@bunnyman666 and @kyledjean you guys are spot on IMO about the use of the stick. It seems with being able to build a wall with your pads in the b-fly, the proper use of the stick is a lost art (I specifically used the word art here – more to come). I read a lot here about people who get the thinnest, lightest pads possible and then complain because either their pads don’t seal completely along the upper edges when in the b-fly or the puck has managed to force its way through the ½” of padding thickness they have in that area. I also see guys dropping into the b-fly and flipping their stick up and out of the way as if the pads and not the stick should be your first line of defense. First, if you have flexi pads or they don’t seal and the top or along the ice, that’s where the stick comes in!!! Not only does it block the puck, you can steer it away as well. And for anyone who says you don’t need it with modern pads, consider that when you flip your stick off the ice you are also pulling you blocker out of position, especially with regard to sealing up close to the body. Along the same lines, I play against a goalie who is a master artist at proactive stick-work. Half the scoring chances that might have been generated by back-doors or cross-crease passes at his net are nullified before they start because of his incredible ability to block them (and yes, I am really jealous of this skill).

As far as hot rebounds are concerned, I suspect for people like @Fullright and I (and I suspect @Wonder35 - congrats at still being in the net BTW!), who remember when dirt was new, we were always taught kicking the puck away was bad goaltending form as with horsehide pads, it put rebounds right in harm’s way. With the new pads, this is an option, but having said that, I always go back to my first instincts which is to direct the rebound to a corner as opposed to putting it out where the forwards can drop on it like a shark in a feeding frenzy. Same thing with corralling a short rebound – it allows me to control the play, freezing it if need be or swiping it aside to a D who is hopefully paying attention (unfortunately this is not the case that often).

My experience has become a blend of these styles and truly a hybrid. I started off as standup in the mid-70s and upon my return ~ 7 years ago I have been gradually trying to integrate a lot of the b-fly stuff. I try to have a broad repertoire as I need all the help I can get. And yes, at my age it can be pretty tough on the hips.

One thing I being mentioned here that I am a bit confused about it is there seems to be the idea that you need to use “old –school” equipment to play stand-up style. I actually came from Cooper horse-hide pads in the ‘70s to Vaughn V2s in 2012 to Brian’s Sub-zeros in the last year. I still have stand-up in my repertoire – the pads don’t really make too much of a difference in that matter (although if you are going to start making skate saves, I suggest you see Fullright about the leather shelled Tacks he showed in a different thread).

Finally I want to clarify that, despite what people think when they see me in net, standup for me is a style, not a form of comedy, although I believe there are many who would argue they are one and the same.

TL;DR? Do what you want, have fun and since you paid good money for it, don’t forget to use your stick

Very good thoughts. As far as style goes and what is right and wrong: if you haven’t listened to the ingoal podcast featuring Brodeur give it a listen. One of the the more interesting things I picked up was that he watched everyone, and I mean everyone, and saw what worked for guys and tried to added it to his own “style”. He also made a good point in that no one truly knows they best style or mannerisms that will work. Everyone is kinda stumbling along. There is no truly right way to stop the puck. Technic is more of an art than a science. One should always be improving their game and adding knew things in. He makes it a huge point in saying this. Three years go by and if you haven’t adapted your game at all you will be left in the dust. Stand up and butterfly shouldn’t be mutually exclusive. We should all be trying to adapt our game into what works for us. “Standup” my be what works for some and not others. Stick work though should never leave your game. Like Colinder said, along with many a coach of mine, you paid for it so why not use it. Give stand up a shot, put it into your game, see how it goes, use what works, and get ride of the rest. It seems very foolish to either always go into the butterfly OR to always stand up. 

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