Lefevre going solo

[Chenner29]

40 minutes ago, ThatCarGuy said:

With this big change I started thinking. If Lefevre is going to make goalie masks under trues name could they possibly take the mips from trues player helmets and fit that in a goalie mask?

Masks were already in the works since they left CCM.  I don't know if they found someone to contract it with, though.  Give it some time and we'll see an announcement

[TitanG]

2 hours ago, Chenner29 said:

Masks were already in the works since they left CCM.  I don't know if they found someone to contract it with, though.  Give it some time and we'll see an announcement

I'm curious to see what they'll do even if it's out of my price range.

[Chenner29]

6 hours ago, TitanG said:

I'm curious to see what they'll do even if it's out of my price range.

I don't know your price range, but I would be surprised if a retail mask goes over $1k USD

[TitanG]

2 hours ago, Chenner29 said:

I don't know your price range, but I would be surprised if a retail mask goes over $1k USD

Yeah, problem is that's still a lot of Canadian dinero, but the market is what it is. I was more wondering if they'd offer more custom options at an increased price or target the retail market since CSA/HECC approvals are not cheap. But of course with True now involved, they have much deeper pockets.

[TheGoalNet]

On 10/9/2020 at 2:06 PM, ser33 said:

https://www.geargeek.com/position/goalie

 

statistics which brands are used by nhl goalkeepers. you can select any part of the gear to find out the statistics

It's the most 1 because CCM and Lefevre split. CCM by Lefevre was at around 50%. Secondly, most Vaughn guys have some dated specs. Pros like their gear because it doesn't change too dramatically... hence not innovative

[Naz]

On 10/9/2020 at 7:59 AM, Mike24 said:

Didn’t Fuhr wear John Brown for a good stretch?

Dryden wore Cooper pads and trapper, and alternated between Cooper blocker and Bourdon blocker.

Fuhr broke into the league wearing Koho pads, Koho trapper and Brown blocker.  Then went on to wear Brown pads with CCM mitts.  Then moved to all CCM gear.  Then was in his D&R setups before moving back to Brown, and finally that Franklin stuff.

Smitty was mostly Koho pads with CCM blocker and Cooper, sometimes CCM trappers.  He briefly used Brown pads towards the end of his career.

I am old.

[keeperton]

7 hours ago, TheGoalNet said:

It's the most 1 because CCM and Lefevre split. CCM by Lefevre was at around 50%. Secondly, most Vaughn guys have some dated specs. Pros like their gear because it doesn't change too dramatically... hence not innovative

Isn't that more of the fact that a fair few guys in Vaughn specifically request the older stuff instead of using Vaughn because "the new feels like the old" sort of deal? I feel like you're slightly misrepresenting that here.

[Chenner29]

15 minutes ago, keeperton said:

Isn't that more of the fact that a fair few guys in Vaughn specifically request the older stuff instead of using Vaughn because "the new feels like the old" sort of deal? I feel like you're slightly misrepresenting that here.

Here's a "chicken or the egg" scenario for us to think about regarding gear innovation...
If Vaughn's pro customer base refuses to adopt new designs,

• is it Vaughn's fault for not bringing enough R&D to the table? 
• is it a pro sales reps' fault for not correctly communicating features to benefits?
• is it the pro's fault for not challenging R&D enough to do something new?

How do answers to the questions above impact their ability to attract new customers at the retail level?

[keeperton]

1 hour ago, Chenner29 said:

Here's a "chicken or the egg" scenario for us to think about regarding gear innovation...
If Vaughn's pro customer base refuses to adopt new designs,

• is it Vaughn's fault for not bringing enough R&D to the table? 
• is it a pro sales reps' fault for not correctly communicating features to benefits?
• is it the pro's fault for not challenging R&D enough to do something new?

How do answers to the questions above impact their ability to attract new customers at the retail level?

I'll bite and try to circle this back to the thread at hand.

• is it Vaughn's fault for not bringing enough R&D to the table?

I think this is a yes and a no. The reason I say this is because I think Vaughn tries to do things, but perhaps don't have it completely backed by R&D metrics the way other companies do. As examples: CCM's research regarding reaction speeds, Bauer's material sciences, Brian's foam manufacturing partner, or Lefevre's huge professional clientele list to aid in development.

Vaughn has tried some smaller things, some have worked and some haven't. Maybe not the first, but I think Vaughn has the most fully fleshed out implementation of the professor strap, and it feels great when using and wearing it. On the other hand, they had their magnetic buckles totally flounder among multiple user groups. I feel the need to really shove how great the Quickslide (and likewise the OptiSlide, since it's nearly identical if not entirely) really is; Quickslide and CORtech are far and away top right now.

I think there is definitely something going, and I've had the same critique of other lines too. I cannot easily tell the difference between the EFlex pads (I'm aware of some of the changes), and I can only sort of tell the difference between any of the Velocity lines by chunking it from 1, 2-4. 5-7, 8-9. Obviously, if something is not broken by all means do not "fix" it. The fact that these lines haven't changed much speaks volumes to how good they truly are.

• is it a pro sales reps' fault for not correctly communicating features to benefits?

Maybe. I'm taking this in the context of pushing the pros to use the newer items/technologies, so correct my interpretation if that is incorrect. I think it's more the pro sales reps' job to make sure their professional clientele are happy and getting exactly what they want. In Vaughn's case, I think that's as simple as, "Hey, I really like the 5500 glove and would love to keep using that." We see this in other companies too.

Where I think it breaks down is when you visibly have them using the older models when the newer one is being pushed at retail level. Why were so many guys using the SLR instead of the SLR2? Were they actually the SLR2 with the SLR graphic (which I admittedly like more)? It's pretty hard to tell, partially because they are so iterative in their improvement process.

Reading the opinions of pros say something like, "wow, this FRS on the 20.1s truly is something," or, "wow, Bauer is really getting what we want now with the 2S," or, "the Optik is really pushing what we didn't realize we needed in a pad," speaks volumes. I'm legitimately excited for the 12.2s, they look like everything I really want in a pad (obviously can't know until trying them), I was excited for the Optik2 line, and Bauer continues to impress me. I've even come around on the Axis a little and the Eflex5s look to be making some nice changes (have yet to see the strapping). Am I excited for the SLR3? Not really, but I expect Vaughn to make some good tweaks to it and put out a pad I would still consider in my top 3 for "if I bought something right now, would it be this?" Do I have a background of wearing Vaughn? Definitely, so I'm fitting ULTIMA's mold here a bit.

• is it the pro's fault for not challenging R&D enough to do something new?

No, I don't think this is their responsibility at all. I do think the pros could contribute to small eureka moments in the iterative process of each pad's design though. Since the pandemic shorted my opportunity to demo "this year's" offerings, I can't know how much more I would like the V9 versus the V8. Just looking at them, I think I would have really liked that they changed the toe-strap to the bungee, streamlined the strapping a lot, and maybe made them feel slightly less bulky.

I think with True jumping in with Lefevre we can likely expect to see the L20.1 flourish as people start to understand the FRS strapping better and see the 12.2 totally compete with the EFlex, Velocity, and GNetik.

Wrote a little more than I expected to.

[Chenner29]

7 hours ago, keeperton said:

I'll bite and try to circle this back to the thread at hand.

• is it Vaughn's fault for not bringing enough R&D to the table?

I think this is a yes and a no. The reason I say this is because I think Vaughn tries to do things, but perhaps don't have it completely backed by R&D metrics the way other companies do. As examples: CCM's research regarding reaction speeds, Bauer's material sciences, Brian's foam manufacturing partner, or Lefevre's huge professional clientele list to aid in development.

Vaughn has tried some smaller things, some have worked and some haven't. Maybe not the first, but I think Vaughn has the most fully fleshed out implementation of the professor strap, and it feels great when using and wearing it. On the other hand, they had their magnetic buckles totally flounder among multiple user groups. I feel the need to really shove how great the Quickslide (and likewise the OptiSlide, since it's nearly identical if not entirely) really is; Quickslide and CORtech are far and away top right now.

I think there is definitely something going, and I've had the same critique of other lines too. I cannot easily tell the difference between the EFlex pads (I'm aware of some of the changes), and I can only sort of tell the difference between any of the Velocity lines by chunking it from 1, 2-4. 5-7, 8-9. Obviously, if something is not broken by all means do not "fix" it. The fact that these lines haven't changed much speaks volumes to how good they truly are.

• is it a pro sales reps' fault for not correctly communicating features to benefits?

Maybe. I'm taking this in the context of pushing the pros to use the newer items/technologies, so correct my interpretation if that is incorrect. I think it's more the pro sales reps' job to make sure their professional clientele are happy and getting exactly what they want. In Vaughn's case, I think that's as simple as, "Hey, I really like the 5500 glove and would love to keep using that." We see this in other companies too.

Where I think it breaks down is when you visibly have them using the older models when the newer one is being pushed at retail level. Why were so many guys using the SLR instead of the SLR2? Were they actually the SLR2 with the SLR graphic (which I admittedly like more)? It's pretty hard to tell, partially because they are so iterative in their improvement process.

Reading the opinions of pros say something like, "wow, this FRS on the 20.1s truly is something," or, "wow, Bauer is really getting what we want now with the 2S," or, "the Optik is really pushing what we didn't realize we needed in a pad," speaks volumes. I'm legitimately excited for the 12.2s, they look like everything I really want in a pad (obviously can't know until trying them), I was excited for the Optik2 line, and Bauer continues to impress me. I've even come around on the Axis a little and the Eflex5s look to be making some nice changes (have yet to see the strapping). Am I excited for the SLR3? Not really, but I expect Vaughn to make some good tweaks to it and put out a pad I would still consider in my top 3 for "if I bought something right now, would it be this?" Do I have a background of wearing Vaughn? Definitely, so I'm fitting ULTIMA's mold here a bit.

• is it the pro's fault for not challenging R&D enough to do something new?

No, I don't think this is their responsibility at all. I do think the pros could contribute to small eureka moments in the iterative process of each pad's design though. Since the pandemic shorted my opportunity to demo "this year's" offerings, I can't know how much more I would like the V9 versus the V8. Just looking at them, I think I would have really liked that they changed the toe-strap to the bungee, streamlined the strapping a lot, and maybe made them feel slightly less bulky.

I think with True jumping in with Lefevre we can likely expect to see the L20.1 flourish as people start to understand the FRS strapping better and see the 12.2 totally compete with the EFlex, Velocity, and GNetik.

Wrote a little more than I expected to.

I agree with a lot of your points, but wanted to respond to some sections.

Quote

I think this is a yes and a no. The reason I say this is because I think Vaughn tries to do things, but perhaps don't have it completely backed by R&D metrics the way other companies do. As examples: CCM's research regarding reaction speeds, Bauer's material sciences, Brian's foam manufacturing partner, or Lefevre's huge professional clientele list to aid in development.

Vaughn has tried some smaller things, some have worked and some haven't. Maybe not the first, but I think Vaughn has the most fully fleshed out implementation of the professor strap, and it feels great when using and wearing it. On the other hand, they had their magnetic buckles totally flounder among multiple user groups. I feel the need to really shove how great the Quickslide (and likewise the OptiSlide, since it's nearly identical if not entirely) really is; Quickslide and CORtech are far and away top right now.

It's my personal belief that Vaughn designs for retail feel and shelf appeal first.  Meaning, gloves are meant to close easily off the shelf, and pads/pants/chest&arm units flex like they've been in your bag for years.  I always laugh when people comment that SLRs or Velocities feel "stiff" - the store must not have had any high end Bauer product to try on.

If they utilize pro input for designs, they don't advertise it - and I think we can all agree their marketing efforts have been pretty spotty, at best. 

When you look at their stable of pro clients, it would seem that the majority of their guys are using old specs - they are actually really good at keeping the old model logos on gear with newer graphics.  We can't say this about CCM...look at Holtby; he is most certainly not wearing the latest EFlex gear.  He's got a full suite of leather straps and an open toe with a toe cap cover...and that's just on the outside.

I'm not quite sure what they were thinking with the magnetic buckles.  I don't think the weight savings justified the end result, and it's funny to see that they ditched it entirely after one model year.

Quote

Maybe. I'm taking this in the context of pushing the pros to use the newer items/technologies, so correct my interpretation if that is incorrect. I think it's more the pro sales reps' job to make sure their professional clientele are happy and getting exactly what they want. In Vaughn's case, I think that's as simple as, "Hey, I really like the 5500 glove and would love to keep using that." We see this in other companies too.

Where I think it breaks down is when you visibly have them using the older models when the newer one is being pushed at retail level. Why were so many guys using the SLR instead of the SLR2? Were they actually the SLR2 with the SLR graphic (which I admittedly like more)? It's pretty hard to tell, partially because they are so iterative in their improvement process.

Yes, that is correct. 

If your interpretation of the pro sales rep's role is how the sales process is in pro hockey, then they are missing a mountain of opportunity. 

To give some background, my "real job" (outside of buying gear and writing stuff for the board and occasionally messing with people on here...lol) is as a manufacturer sales rep in the construction industry. 

It is my job to educate my customers on our full array of offerings, as well as challenge my fabrication team to push the boundaries in quality, lead time, and product variety. 

If a pro sales rep isn't taking his time to understand his customer needs, then he's taking the potential risk of losing them as a customer down the line because he wasn't addressing what they want.  Same thing if he's not showing them product advances year over year and what R&D has churned out for their guys, and a huge error in judgment in the world of professional sales.

I think @TheGoalNet works in a similar capacity at his real life job and can echo some of my sentiments above.

Quote

No, I don't think this is their responsibility at all. I do think the pros could contribute to small eureka moments in the iterative process of each pad's design though. Since the pandemic shorted my opportunity to demo "this year's" offerings, I can't know how much more I would like the V9 versus the V8. Just looking at them, I think I would have really liked that they changed the toe-strap to the bungee, streamlined the strapping a lot, and maybe made them feel slightly less bulky.

Off the top of my head, a few "pro mods" have made it mainstream to the retail level.

• Professor strap (Scrivens)
• Price style open knee lock - it's an option on every pad at retail now
• Removable goalie steel (Belfour had custom cowlings way back when)
• Lundy loop

I do believe that even at the pro ranks, there is a bit of "goaltending hivemind" where athletes will knowingly or subconsciously follow the perceived best goalie.  A few that I can think of right away - it's getting late but I'll jam a couple bullet points out before I go to bed

• Split/double T gloves were essentially non-existent until CCM put Price in one, and now you see them on retail shelves and pro locker rooms everywhere. 
• 580 breaks were nowhere to be found at retail 5 years ago, and I see so many popping up on "new gear brag posts" on Facebook and IG - thanks to Bobs, Binnington, Holtby.
• An overall trend in the market towards firmer, solid core pads (IIRC, Price left Vaughn because they couldn't make a pad stiff/consistent enough for him - but take this with a grain of salt, as I think this tidbit was PR put out by Reebok/CCM at the time, and did not specifically come from Price)

IMO, based on my experience in my industry, these three pillars should be pushing and pulling each other to drive better gear for pro customers and inspiring changes to trickle down to retail. 

I'm not saying Vaughn isn't doing it right, but I do think they would be doing better if they had a bona fide star to attach themselves to.  Quick had a couple incredible years, but he and his team have been on a downward trend for almost a decade now.  Murray essentially got pushed out of Pittsburgh, and Rask is getting old.

They did well when the Velocity first launched.  Those original V1, V2, and V3 lines were so far ahead of everyone else at the time, they were able to trade a bit of star power* for the sheer quantity of logos they had on goalies in the league.

*Duh, I forgot they had Kipper, who was basically a god for his entire time in Calgary

[Chenner29]

On 10/12/2020 at 7:42 AM, TheGoalNet said:

It's the most 1 because CCM and Lefevre split. CCM by Lefevre was at around 50%. Secondly, most Vaughn guys have some dated specs. Pros like their gear because it doesn't change too dramatically... hence not innovative

Just had this thought

It's the Brodeur curse.

4 out of the 6 brands he's worn are gone

D&R
Heaton
(Pre-Lefevre CCM)
Reebok
Sher-wood
(Vaughn)

[keeperton]

Good stuff, I likewise want to respond to a few points.

20 hours ago, Chenner29 said:

It's my personal belief that Vaughn designs for retail feel and shelf appeal first.  Meaning, gloves are meant to close easily off the shelf, and pads/pants/chest&arm units flex like they've been in your bag for years.  I always laugh when people comment that SLRs or Velocities feel "stiff" - the store must not have had any high end Bauer product to try on.

I agree with this. I will admit I'm very attracted to this in a glove for a lot of personal reasons that basically boil down to having bad wrists. I remember first encountering the SLR2 and thinking "this is what people call stiff?"

Quote

If they utilize pro input for designs, they don't advertise it - and I think we can all agree their marketing efforts have been pretty spotty, at best. 

When you look at their stable of pro clients, it would seem that the majority of their guys are using old specs - they are actually really good at keeping the old model logos on gear with newer graphics.  We can't say this about CCM...look at Holtby; he is most certainly not wearing the latest EFlex gear.  He's got a full suite of leather straps and an open toe with a toe cap cover...and that's just on the outside.

Completely agree. I'm genuinely interested in how stubborn about "my spec" certain guys are. Like some won't even try something else.

Quote

If your interpretation of the pro sales rep's role is how the sales process is in pro hockey, then they are missing a mountain of opportunity. 

To give some background, my "real job" (outside of buying gear and writing stuff for the board and occasionally messing with people on here...lol) is as a manufacturer sales rep in the construction industry. 

It is my job to educate my customers on our full array of offerings, as well as challenge my fabrication team to push the boundaries in quality, lead time, and product variety. 

If a pro sales rep isn't taking his time to understand his customer needs, then he's taking the potential risk of losing them as a customer down the line because he wasn't addressing what they want.  Same thing if he's not showing them product advances year over year and what R&D has churned out for their guys, and a huge error in judgment in the world of professional sales.

I think @TheGoalNet works in a similar capacity at his real life job and can echo some of my sentiments above.

All very interesting. I'm in a different perspective where I work in data analytics/quality engineering for a medical manufacturer, so I'm a very numbers driven person.

I appreciate the viewpoint and it completely scans.

Quote

Off the top of my head, a few "pro mods" have made it mainstream to the retail level.

• Professor strap (Scrivens)
• Price style open knee lock - it's an option on every pad at retail now
• Removable goalie steel (Belfour had custom cowlings way back when)
• Lundy loop

I do believe that even at the pro ranks, there is a bit of "goaltending hivemind" where athletes will knowingly or subconsciously follow the perceived best goalie.  A few that I can think of right away - it's getting late but I'll jam a couple bullet points out before I go to bed

• Split/double T gloves were essentially non-existent until CCM put Price in one, and now you see them on retail shelves and pro locker rooms everywhere. 
• 580 breaks were nowhere to be found at retail 5 years ago, and I see so many popping up on "new gear brag posts" on Facebook and IG - thanks to Bobs, Binnington, Holtby.
• An overall trend in the market towards firmer, solid core pads (IIRC, Price left Vaughn because they couldn't make a pad stiff/consistent enough for him - but take this with a grain of salt, as I think this tidbit was PR put out by Reebok/CCM at the time, and did not specifically come from Price)

I won't nitpick any of these. The professor strap and Lundy loop coming through are huge (on top of people just ridding the boot strap completely).

I agree on the hivemind bit. I feel like we went through a 580 break trend back when it was new as well, then there was a huge 5500 trend... Seems rather cyclic. I do feel like the double-T was always there, but definitely grew quite a bit. I feel like all companies upped their manufacturing capabilities.

Quote

IMO, based on my experience in my industry, these three pillars should be pushing and pulling each other to drive better gear for pro customers and inspiring changes to trickle down to retail. 

I'm not saying Vaughn isn't doing it right, but I do think they would be doing better if they had a bona fide star to attach themselves to.  Quick had a couple incredible years, but he and his team have been on a downward trend for almost a decade now.  Murray essentially got pushed out of Pittsburgh, and Rask is getting old.

I agree completely. I feel like I'm rewatching the console wars and I hope none of them go the way of Sega.

[TheGoalNet]

On 10/12/2020 at 5:49 PM, keeperton said:

Isn't that more of the fact that a fair few guys in Vaughn specifically request the older stuff instead of using Vaughn because "the new feels like the old" sort of deal? I feel like you're slightly misrepresenting that here.

It's more like someone could jump from a V7 to a V9 easier than someone could jump from 1S to Ultra Sonic. Both should be fairly routine changes, but over a couple release cycles, Bauer has changed their gear more than Vaughn

This is NOT meant to be a knock on Vaughn. Vaughn a different strategy than Bauer. Being at the bleeding edge of innovation is not what Vaughn is trying to do.

On 10/12/2020 at 7:43 PM, keeperton said:

I'll bite and try to circle this back to the thread at hand.

• is it Vaughn's fault for not bringing enough R&D to the table?

 I feel the need to really shove how great the Quickslide (and likewise the OptiSlide, since it's nearly identical if not entirely) really is; Quickslide and CORtech are far and away top right now.
 

 

As I said above not bashing Vaughn, but this is a great example. Vaughn was last to market with their sliding material. Bauer, Brian's, and CCM did it first. Vaughn may have done it the best, but they didnt innovate... they followed. I would also argue that Vaughn's was the laziest attempt as they basically copied Brian's.

[coopaloop1234]

29 minutes ago, TheGoalNet said:

It's more like someone could jump from a V7 to a V9 easier than someone could jump from 1S to Ultra Sonic. Both should be fairly routine changes, but over a couple release cycles, Bauer has changed their gear more than Vaughn

This is NOT meant to be a knock on Vaughn. Vaughn a different strategy than Bauer. Being at the bleeding edge of innovation is not what Vaughn is trying to do.

Is the Ultrasonic really that different of a pad on the ice than the 1S? Can't say I've worn any new Bauer products on the ice, but my time with their pads and gloves in store really doesn't showcase any major differences. Gloves feel the same at least.

Quote

As I said above not bashing Vaughn, but this is a great example. Vaughn was last to market with their sliding material. Bauer, Brian's, and CCM did it first. Vaughn may have done it the best, but they didnt innovate... they followed. I would also argue that Vaughn's was the laziest attempt as they basically copied Brian's.

Always leaving out Warrior eh? Even they brought their own spin on the fast sliding fad with their Airslide.

But definitely spot on about them lagging in regards to introducing new tech. Though at least we can give them credit for being the first with the Scriven's strap. But we can argue that they still followed someone elses idea with that.

[TheGoalNet]

59 minutes ago, coopaloop1234 said:

Is the Ultrasonic really that different of a pad on the ice than the 1S? Can't say I've worn any new Bauer products on the ice, but my time with their pads and gloves in store really doesn't showcase any major differences. Gloves feel the same at least.

Always leaving out Warrior eh? Even they brought their own spin on the fast sliding fad with their Airslide.

But definitely spot on about them lagging in regards to introducing new tech. Though at least we can give them credit for being the first with the Scriven's strap. But we can argue that they still followed someone elses idea with that.

Ultra Sonic - Yes, the softer boot, knee block, and strapping make it feel like a new pad. Quite frankly, I don't think US feels like anything I have tested before. With that said, the next closest would be 1S/2S. So it's new, but it's Bauer Supreme. That's why I used 1S users will jump into it easily, but will appreciate how much it's changed

Yes, Vaughn developed and commercialized the Professor strap... and every brand, but Warrior , has copied them! That was a great a development and I love it on all my pads. If I want to get knit picky... that didn't come from R&D. That was commercializing a custom spec. By contrast, CCM studied strapping with a PhD in bio mechanics to see where the straps should be to make the pad hit the ice faster.

Great segue to your Warrior comment... I left Warrior out because Air slide is a change in the gusset filler /shape vs a specific material like the rest of the field. I also couldn't remember if AirSlide came before or after QuickSlide. So given that context, felt okay to leave it out

But Warrior did R&D with the AirSlide and shared some video clips with the public. They created AirSlide, did a DOE to validate it slide faster, quantified it with data, and then released it as a product. That is R&D. Commercializing a popular custom option is not R&D.

 

[coopaloop1234]

6 minutes ago, TheGoalNet said:

Ultra Sonic - Yes, the softer boot, knee block, and strapping make it feel like a new pad. Quite frankly, I don't think US feels like anything I have tested before. With that said, the next closest would be 1S/2S. So it's new, but it's Bauer Supreme. That's why I used 1S users will jump into it easily, but will appreciate how much it's changed

Good to know. My experience with Bauer pads and gloves is solely limited to my One55 glove set.

Quote

 Great segue to your Warrior comment... I left Warrior out because Air slide is a change in the gusset filler /shape vs a specific material like the rest of the field. I also couldn't remember if AirSlide came before or after QuickSlide. So given that context, felt okay to leave it out

But Warrior did R&D with the AirSlide and shared some video clips with the public. They created AirSlide, did a DOE to validate it slide faster, quantified it with data, and then released it as a product. That is R&D. Commercializing a popular custom option is not R&D.

I honestly can't remember either. Airslide was debuted with the G4 which was released publicly almost four years ago. It was pretty much in the midst of the "fast slide" revolution. I do know it came after the release of coretech though.

To no surprise, the brands with the largest corporate backing have the best R&D. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Brians is independently owned like Vaughn right?

[TheGoalNet]

43 minutes ago, coopaloop1234 said:

Good to know. My experience with Bauer pads and gloves is solely limited to my One55 glove set.

I honestly can't remember either. Airslide was debuted with the G4 which was released publicly almost four years ago. It was pretty much in the midst of the "fast slide" revolution. I do know it came after the release of coretech though.

To no surprise, the brands with the largest corporate backing have the best R&D. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Brians is independently owned like Vaughn right?

Agreed on the R&D, but I would say it's more tied to player gear. Warrior is the only brand left tied to a shoe company, New Balance.

Bauer is part of a group that owns Easton Baseball, Mission Roller Hockey, Cascade Lacrosse, and Maverick Lacrosse. Peak Achievement Athletics is the name of the group.

CCM is owned the PE firm Birch Hill

True is part of True Temper sports who is in golf shafts (True Temper, Project X, and Graffaloy), True Baseball, and True Lacrosse.

Brands that make player sticks and skates have the largest revenues. They also have more testing equipment in house that could be used by the goalie department. Puck cannons, slow motion cameras, in house mini rink or synthetic rink, university partnerships, shared exclusivity of materials, etc etc

Vaughn is owned by Mike Vaughn. He also owns Graf and Eagle too.

Brian's ownership is more merky to me. I think they are owned by a group, of which Mike Vaughn is an investor? I do know that Vaughn and Brian's are run as completely separate businesses

As goalie equipment gets more and more tech driven, it will be harder and harder for the small or goalie specific companies to innovate. Brian's has done a great job of it to date and it will curious to see if they can keep that trend going.

Been wearing my Optik 2 gear more lately as part of a rotation. I have been appreciating the subtitles of it more and more. It's a really polished product and doesn't have any major flaws. It's probably the safest line to recommend to anyone? The sum of the parts are better than the individual tech components. By contrast, I think Bauer has more innovative individual components. No one is in Bauer's league for rebound velocity or sliding.

I don't think it's an accident that Bauer and CCM are pushing full steam ahead on selling technology and moving the discussions away from quality and durability. It's not to say either company makes a poor or low quality product, they are just focusing where it's hardest for the goalie only brands to compete.

[ThatCarGuy]

As a new bauer user the rebounds, stiffness, and sliding are like nothing I’ve ever seen coming from my previous warrior sets

[keeperton]

5 hours ago, TheGoalNet said:

It's more like someone could jump from a V7 to a V9 easier than someone could jump from 1S to Ultra Sonic. Both should be fairly routine changes, but over a couple release cycles, Bauer has changed their gear more than Vaughn

This is NOT meant to be a knock on Vaughn. Vaughn a different strategy than Bauer. Being at the bleeding edge of innovation is not what Vaughn is trying to do.

 

As I said above not bashing Vaughn, but this is a great example. Vaughn was last to market with their sliding material. Bauer, Brian's, and CCM did it first. Vaughn may have done it the best, but they didnt innovate... they followed. I would also argue that Vaughn's was the laziest attempt as they basically copied Brian's.

I didn't think you were bashing Vaughn, for what it's worth. I want to come across more as someone that thinks what they do is necessary/grounds others around them than as a steadfast defender/loyalist.

[TheGoalNet]

1 hour ago, keeperton said:

I didn't think you were bashing Vaughn, for what it's worth. I want to come across more as someone that thinks what they do is necessary/grounds others around them than as a steadfast defender/loyalist.

Okay, I am glad you understand where I am coming from.

I talk with CCM much more than I talk to Vaughn. But I have had similar conversations with both companies. When you are as popular as they, combined 80% of the NHL, it's tough to do anything too crazy. You always need to walk the line of making a better product and not losing your core user in the process.

When your goalie market share is small or your not viewed as a goalie brand, Bauer pre-OD1N or Brian's pre-SZ1, it's much easier to try something crazy and outside the box

[Chenner29]

On 10/13/2020 at 10:14 PM, keeperton said:

Completely agree. I'm genuinely interested in how stubborn about "my spec" certain guys are. Like some won't even try something else.

Off the top of my head, I can think of Quick, Campbell, Schneider, Rask are all playing in legacy gear lines (see what I did there).  It's tough to say with the other manufacturers.

Quote

I won't nitpick any of these. The professor strap and Lundy loop coming through are huge (on top of people just ridding the boot strap completely).

I agree on the hivemind bit. I feel like we went through a 580 break trend back when it was new as well, then there was a huge 5500 trend... Seems rather cyclic. I do feel like the double-T was always there, but definitely grew quite a bit. I feel like all companies upped their manufacturing capabiliti

I think Price was one of the first to ditch the boot strap.  I wanna say I remember seeing pics of him during the Eflex 2 years where he basically just took the boot strap out.  We could see the hole in the boot on TV.

580 was the only glove break offered until Koho 590 came out.  Giguere was "the man" at the time after his insane playoff run in 2003, so maybe this is the hivemind effect again.  The 5500 era may have just been because so many guys jumped ship to play in the Velocity.  IMO all their gloves besides the 5500 have felt like crap (besides the VE8 one piece, which is basically a 590)

On 10/16/2020 at 1:06 PM, coopaloop1234 said:

Good to know. My experience with Bauer pads and gloves is solely limited to my One55 glove set.

I honestly can't remember either. Airslide was debuted with the G4 which was released publicly almost four years ago. It was pretty much in the midst of the "fast slide" revolution. I do know it came after the release of coretech though.

To no surprise, the brands with the largest corporate backing have the best R&D. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Brians is independently owned like Vaughn right?

Went through some old catalogs.

G4 came out in 2018 and its release coincides with Vaughn's Velocity line, so we got the V8 that year as well (both lines were refreshed this year to the G5* and V9**).  I think VE8 was the first time we saw Quickslide on a Vaughn pad...so both came out in 2018.

Bauer's CORTech debuted in 2016.  CCM Fastglide released with EF3 in 2017.

*G5, RF/1 Mask, and M1 sticks have been out for several months now, but I find it weird that Warrior's website still hasn't been updated with the new gear.

**I don't have a catalog with the original Velocity 1 release, but 2004 and 2006 both show V2.  So I'm guessing 2002 or earlier. AFAIK this is the longest running pad line from a major manufacturer at the moment.  RBK Premier launched in 2006 and ended this year with the launch of Axis.

 

[keeperton]

9 hours ago, Chenner29 said:

Went through some old catalogs.

G4 came out in 2018 and its release coincides with Vaughn's Velocity line, so we got the V8 that year as well (both lines were refreshed this year to the G5* and V9**).  I think VE8 was the first time we saw Quickslide on a Vaughn pad...so both came out in 2018.

Bauer's CORTech debuted in 2016.  CCM Fastglide released with EF3 in 2017.

*G5, RF/1 Mask, and M1 sticks have been out for several months now, but I find it weird that Warrior's website still hasn't been updated with the new gear.

**I don't have a catalog with the original Velocity 1 release, but 2004 and 2006 both show V2.  So I'm guessing 2002 or earlier. AFAIK this is the longest running pad line from a major manufacturer at the moment.  RBK Premier launched in 2006 and ended this year with the launch of Axis.

 

Real quick since you expressed some uncertainty:

The launch of the VE8 didn't have quickslide, but it was put later and treated as a launch for the SLR2. I know this from demoing some VE8s early and they had a weave sliding surface.

Velocity 1 was definitely between 2001-2002, my brother got some on launch but I don't remember during what time of the cycle in the year, then I got some before my 2002-2003 season.

[Chenner29]

13 hours ago, keeperton said:

Real quick since you expressed some uncertainty:

The launch of the VE8 didn't have quickslide, but it was put later and treated as a launch for the SLR2. I know this from demoing some VE8s early and they had a weave sliding surface.

Velocity 1 was definitely between 2001-2002, my brother got some on launch but I don't remember during what time of the cycle in the year, then I got some before my 2002-2003 season.

Thanks!  Yeah maybe we can call VE8 with Quickslide VE8.5. 

I will say, IMO the Velocity was the bar none the best pad on the market back then.  Either my gear taste changed after V4, or everyone else started catching up.

6 hours ago, netminder said:

Isnt it odd, that Lefevre is on the better part of the 10th month since thier solo launch and they STILL only offer just white in the fast slide option??

I find it that quite amateur, sorry, but whats the reasoning for next to no colorway choices on their website after 10 months?? the first 2-10 weeks i get, but im more then suprised the 'bestest' doent offer the same as the rest. by now.

You'd be surprised how expensive rolls of Jenpro are - IIRC, tens of thousands of dollars.  For a small shop like Lefevre, this is a huge initial investment. 

I'm sure Fastglide is even more expensive - it feels thicker and there's a pattern embossed on it, so extra material and labor is involved. 

White is the most popular color on professional gear by far, and the company is heavily marketing/catering to pro clientele, so it makes sense that they would initially only offer it.

Generally speaking, adding a bunch of inventory without an idea of market reception is just plain bad business - "the customer is always right."  I'm sure they will add it as customers begin to demand more colors, but I see it being pretty limited (black, red, blue). 

For what it's worth, I believe Brian's only offered Optislide in white their first year, then added other colors the following year for pros only.

[Max27]

3 hours ago, Chenner29 said:

You'd be surprised how expensive rolls of Jenpro are - IIRC, tens of thousands of dollars.  For a small shop like Lefevre, this is a huge initial investment. 

I'm sure Fastglide is even more expensive - it feels thicker and there's a pattern embossed on it, so extra material and labor is involved. 

White is the most popular color on professional gear by far, and the company is heavily marketing/catering to pro clientele, so it makes sense that they would initially only offer it.

Generally speaking, adding a bunch of inventory without an idea of market reception is just plain bad business - "the customer is always right."  I'm sure they will add it as customers begin to demand more colors, but I see it being pretty limited (black, red, blue). 

For what it's worth, I believe Brian's only offered Optislide in white their first year, then added other colors the following year for pros only.

could it also be that they've only figured how to make fast glide in white so far? assuming that due to it still being a relatively new material still to the production lines, it could be only producible in white. Likely, you're right though, it costs a fortune to get the materials for pads, Lefevre can't afford that at from an investment standpoint right now, they would lose thousands of dollars from how big a surplus of colored fast glide coated jenpro rolls/sheets they end up having.

Primo/Opti Slide was also offered in Black, White, and Grey the first year they had it, which was the Optik1s first year in the release cycle. I remember @TheGoalNet was able to get it in red on his old o1s before they stopped offering it at the time. I'm pretty sure during the gnetik 4s first year, they expanded it to the current color selection. Brians is naturally far more established than Lefevre currently is though, and could afford to have a surplus if they even were to end up having it. But, Primo was also sought after by Brians retail customers a lot, which led to the color expansion. It was also only offered out of high demand, and was expanded because of further demand, so they would probably have a very easy time making back the investment, whereas Fastglide is a new material Lefevre has promoted, and Speedskin back when they were partnered with CCM was a promoted material by them, not as much a demanded one like Primo/Opti Slide was.

[estogoalie]

9 hours ago, Chenner29 said:

White is the most popular color on professional gear by far, and the company is heavily marketing/catering to pro clientele, so it makes sense that they would initially only offer it.

Generally speaking, adding a bunch of inventory without an idea of market reception is just plain bad business - "the customer is always right."  I'm sure they will add it as customers begin to demand more colors, but I see it being pretty limited (black, red, blue).

Like Henry Ford famously said about the Model T: "You can have any color you want, as long as it's black"