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NHL could face big backlash if this hypothetical comes true

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https://nypost.com/2020/04/11/nhl-could-face-big-backlash-if-this-hypothetical-comes-true/

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In this hypothetical, the NHL is given the all-clear by the proper state health authorities and local governing bodies to resume the season at some point this summer at neutral-site, remote locations with games that would be played without spectators.

For the purposes of this discussion, it does not matter whether the league would attempt to complete the regular season in some fashion or move straight to the playoffs, and it does not matter the form of the schedule or tournament.

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Of course the only way to gain admission to that bubble would be to have tested negative for COVID-19. Which means that in a country in which millions who need the test have no access to one and almost certainly will be in the same position a month or two from now, priority would be given to what, the 3,000 or 5,000 people essential to maintaining the NHL ecosystem?

How would you feel about that if you don’t know if it’s safe to resume a semblance of normal life, if you cannot get a test, but this subsection of professional athletes has been given priority? Would you be so thankful for the resumption of hockey that you would accept this scenario as the price of entertainment and business darn near as usual in this society?

This is a really good read that takes you down the rabbit hole so to speak.  Much more to read than the quoted sections are found in the link above.

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They're going to try and find a way to have the playoffs. "Who would have won in 2020?" isn't a question they want hanging over the league, especially because everyone played most of the season before things got shut down.

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I think most people should be accustomed to the fact that there are haves and have nots.  People in the professional sports are the haves.

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15 minutes ago, OceanMon said:

I think most people should be accustomed to the fact that there are haves and have nots.  People in the professional sports are the haves.

It'd be easy enough to get the tests and not be dicks about it: just makes sure that the NHL purchases and donates large amounts of PPE and testing kits to local hospitals that are running short.

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Posted (edited)

I think they should just do the right thing and cancel the season. Don't mess with human lives, man. 

Even if it's just 1 person contacts the virus through the hypothetical NHL restart, that could be all it takes. 

Cancel the season and let's not be greedy here. The NHL has grown by leaps and bounds. I think they can take the hit financially speaking and scrap the remainder of the season/playoffs and start fresh next season if they can.

Edited by creasecollector
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, OceanMon said:

I think most people should be accustomed to the fact that there are haves and have nots.  People in the professional sports are the haves.

Screw that. This is an unprecedented threat to global health—when this many people are sick and dying (and losing their income and health insurance), the fact that someone is good at a sport (or has millions of dollars) does not make them more deserving proper healthcare. Is someone who lost a loved one—or who is currently fighting for their own life while navigating an overwhelmed healthcare system—supposed to give a shit that Austin Matthews has a mean shot?

The fact that athletes receive superior healthcare in normal, non-COVID-19 times is incidental to the fact that their careers are based on their physical health, and they have employers who are willing to ensure that they receive the best care possible—fine. But during a global pandemic that's uprooting our way of life, that thinking should go right out the window. 

FWIW, I think we're actually seeing a marked increase in resentment towards the "haves". The backlash against celebrities complaining about being quarantined in their mansions and billionaires who have failed to make meaningful contributions to help fight COVID-19 (most of them) has been palpable, and steadily growing for weeks. I'd hope the NHL would be wary enough to see how badly something like this would rub millions fans—even if some people are content to say "oh well, they're athletes, so they deserve tests and we don't". 

And cancel the season already, there's *zero* chance playoffs are happening. Time to suck it up and accept that "Who won the 2020 Stanley Cup?" is trivia fodder for future generations.

Edited by stackem30
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2 hours ago, stackem30 said:

Screw that. This is an unprecedented threat to global health—when this many people are sick and dying (and losing their income and health insurance), the fact that someone is good at a sport (or has millions of dollars) does not make them more deserving proper healthcare. Is someone who lost a loved one—or who is currently fighting for their own life while navigating an overwhelmed healthcare system—supposed to give a shit that Austin Matthews has a mean shot?

The fact that athletes receive superior healthcare in normal, non-COVID-19 times is incidental to the fact that their careers are based on their physical health, and they have employers who are willing to ensure that they receive the best care possible—fine. But during a global pandemic that's uprooting our way of life, that thinking should go right out the window. 

FWIW, I think we're actually seeing a marked increase in resentment towards the "haves". The backlash against celebrities complaining about being quarantined in their mansions and billionaires who have failed to make meaningful contributions to help fight COVID-19 (most of them) has been palpable, and steadily growing for weeks. I'd hope the NHL would be wary enough to see how badly something like this would rub millions fans—even if some people are content to say "oh well, they're athletes, so they deserve tests and we don't". 

And cancel the season already, there's *zero* chance playoffs are happening. Time to suck it up and accept that "Who won the 2020 Stanley Cup?" is trivia fodder for future generations.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but...

If the NHL really wants to have playoffs, it is possible they can do so without disadvantaging other people. Production of PPE and testing kits is ramping up, and come the summer it's unlikely that hospitals and healthcare providers will be facing shortages of either.

Whether or not infection rates in the US have started to plateau at that point is an open question (we won't know until it happens, and there's no chance the NHL tries to do anything until it does), but it's possible that the NHL could move ahead with a modified playoff format (hosted in a little travelled area where they can effectively lock down and isolate players for the duration, shorter series, requiring players to wear full face protection, potentially starting as late as July/August) before next season.

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3 hours ago, stackem30 said:

Screw that. This is an unprecedented threat to global health—when this many people are sick and dying (and losing their income and health insurance), the fact that someone is good at a sport (or has millions of dollars) does not make them more deserving proper healthcare. Is someone who lost a loved one—or who is currently fighting for their own life while navigating an overwhelmed healthcare system—supposed to give a shit that Austin Matthews has a mean shot?

The fact that athletes receive superior healthcare in normal, non-COVID-19 times is incidental to the fact that their careers are based on their physical health, and they have employers who are willing to ensure that they receive the best care possible—fine. But during a global pandemic that's uprooting our way of life, that thinking should go right out the window. 

FWIW, I think we're actually seeing a marked increase in resentment towards the "haves". The backlash against celebrities complaining about being quarantined in their mansions and billionaires who have failed to make meaningful contributions to help fight COVID-19 (most of them) has been palpable, and steadily growing for weeks. I'd hope the NHL would be wary enough to see how badly something like this would rub millions fans—even if some people are content to say "oh well, they're athletes, so they deserve tests and we don't". 

And cancel the season already, there's *zero* chance playoffs are happening. Time to suck it up and accept that "Who won the 2020 Stanley Cup?" is trivia fodder for future generations.

I hope you're right. The cynical side of me thinks people are too dumb to do anything and the rich will continue to lead privileged lives, pandemic or not. 

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It's over with! Bettman and every team owner should just bite the bullet and accept the inevitable. Global health and needs are the number one priorities.

As big a hockey fan as I am and as bad as I miss the game, playing and watching, it's not worth the risks.

NHL...my personal teammates...see you all in 2021. Stay safe 😎

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, stackem30 said:

FWIW, I think we're actually seeing a marked increase in resentment towards the "haves". The backlash against celebrities complaining about being quarantined in their mansions and billionaires who have failed to make meaningful contributions to help fight COVID-19 (most of them) has been palpable, and steadily growing for weeks. I'd hope the NHL would be wary enough to see how badly something like this would rub millions fans—even if some people are content to say "oh well, they're athletes, so they deserve tests and we don't". 

Could you Imagine the audacity? 

11 hours ago, CJ Boiss said:

I'm not disagreeing with you, but...

If the NHL really wants to have playoffs, it is possible they can do so without disadvantaging other people. Production of PPE and testing kits is ramping up, and come the summer it's unlikely that hospitals and healthcare providers will be facing shortages of either.

Whether or not infection rates in the US have started to plateau at that point is an open question (we won't know until it happens, and there's no chance the NHL tries to do anything until it does), but it's possible that the NHL could move ahead with a modified playoff format (hosted in a little travelled area where they can effectively lock down and isolate players for the duration, shorter series, requiring players to wear full face protection, potentially starting as late as July/August) before next season.

Production of PPE has been at peak levels for months and we're still having countries fighting over basic PPE supplies. And that's for their respective health organizations. 

None of that accounts for "essential services" businesses. Working in procurement showcases how difficult getting any PPE for my business has been over the past few months. Taking necessary tests and PPE for a handful of non essential businesses and athletes isn't the correct action to take. Not until there is an actual surplus of necessary supplies worldwide. 

These guys pushing for their respective leagues to come back are solely looking at their bottom line and also understand that they have a great chance of jumping the line for getting testing kits/ppe supplies. 

Honestly, during situations like this, you need to trim the fat and sports is at the top of that. Axing the season for ALL leagues is the correct action until things return to some form of normalcy.  Especially in the US. Canada has been doing a decent job at reducing this threat, especially on the West Coast, but you need to understand that the US is just at the real onset of this. We've got at least till the fall until things calm down, let alone when things would actually go back to normal. 

God I miss going out. 

Edited by coopaloop1234

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3 hours ago, coopaloop1234 said:

Production of PPE has been at peak levels for months... *snip*

No, it definitely has not. The response in the United States was several months slow, they only started ramping up production of PPE and testing kits in mid-late March, and the federal administration didn't invoke the Defence Production Act until early April.

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Honestly, during situations like this, you need to trim the fat and sports is at the top of that. Axing the season for ALL leagues is the correct action until things return to some form of normalcy.  Especially in the US. Canada has been doing a decent job at reducing this threat, especially on the West Coast, but you need to understand that the US is just at the real onset of this. We've got at least till the fall until things calm down, let alone when things would actually go back to normal. 

Whether or not things plateau in the summer is impossible to predict right now. Maybe the States gets their act together by June/July. Maybe they don't. Either way, the NHL is going to stay in a holding pattern until the last possible moment, because there's no reason to do otherwise.

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3 minutes ago, CJ Boiss said:

No, it definitely has not. The response in the United States was several months slow, they only started ramping up production of PPE and testing kits in mid-late March, and the federal administration didn't invoke the Defence Production Act until early April.

Yea, you're totally right. 3M has just increased their production levels of respiratory PPE. https://www.medicaldevice-network.com/news/coronavirus-outbreak-mask-production/

The world has been operating at near or full capacity on the production of respiratory gear for several months now, even the US. This isn't a new situation where companies just beginning the ramp of production to meet the increasing demand. Demand has been through the roof for a while now, we're literally at a shortage and have been for a while. 

The Defense Production Act was a retroactive effort by the US government to literally pillage the already promised goods to other countries because they couldn't plan ahead. 

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, coopaloop1234 said:

Yea, you're totally right. 3M has just increased their production levels of respiratory PPE. https://www.medicaldevice-network.com/news/coronavirus-outbreak-mask-production/

The world has been operating at near or full capacity on the production of respiratory gear for several months now, even the US. This isn't a new situation where companies just beginning the ramp of production to meet the increasing demand. Demand has been through the roof for a while now, we're literally at a shortage and have been for a while. 

The Defense Production Act was a retroactive effort by the US government to literally pillage the already promised goods to other countries because they couldn't plan ahead. 

The Defence Production Act empowers the federal government to force manufacturers to shift their facilities into the production of specific goods. Like forcing car manufacturers to produce ventilators.

That's what peak production looks like; when everyone who is capable of making PPE/testing kits/medical equipment, even if they wouldn't normally, is doing so.

Edited by CJ Boiss

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41 minutes ago, CJ Boiss said:

The Defence Production Act empowers the federal government to force manufacturers to shift their facilities into the production of specific goods. Like forcing car manufacturers to produce ventilators.

That's what peak production looks like; when everyone who is capable of making PPE/testing kits/medical equipment, even if they wouldn't normally, is doing so.

The first section of the act is the prioritization of contracts for the US. One of 3M's major production plants is based in the USA and other countries (like Canada) we're relying on already existing contracts for PPE equipment. 

All the defense act did was take already confirmed orders for other countries so that the US could retroactively resupply themselves. 

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/trump-admin-still-stealing-ppe-supplies-puts-states-on-guard-82004549683
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/02/global-battle-coronavirus-equipment-masks-tests

What you're referring to is the third and smallest portion of the defense act that only has a marginal input to the overall increase in production. The output that these secondary suppliers are going to produce is relatively marginal to the overall effort. It's still helpful, but not exactly a game changer. 

Regardless, 3M and other major players have already been near to full production capacity for months (ThEy JuSt StArTeD tO RaMp Up CaPaCiTy) and that's just in the USA. The rest of the world was working prior to that and we are STILL at a world wide shortage. 

But yea, now that the USA is starting to recognize this as an issue everything will be fixed. :eyeroll:

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, coopaloop1234 said:

The first section of the act is the prioritization of contracts for the US. One of 3M's major production plants is based in the USA and other countries (like Canada) we're relying on already existing contracts for PPE equipment. 

All the defense act did was take already confirmed orders for other countries so that the US could retroactively resupply themselves. 

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/trump-admin-still-stealing-ppe-supplies-puts-states-on-guard-82004549683
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/02/global-battle-coronavirus-equipment-masks-tests

What you're referring to is the third and smallest portion of the defense act that only has a marginal input to the overall increase in production. The output that these secondary suppliers are going to produce is relatively marginal to the overall effort. It's still helpful, but not exactly a game changer. 

Ah, no, the first section of the DPA authorizes the president to require that businesses accept and prioritize contracts for materials that are necessary for national defence. Showing up at an airport tarmac and waving stacks of cash around to buy a shipment of Chinese PPE bound for France is not that. Forcing a supplier to accept a contract, and throwing money at a supplier until they voluntarily cancel or delay other contracts, are not the same thing. The federal government is not utilizing the DPA when it purchases and hoards critical medical supplies.

And the third section of the DPA is what empowers the president to enforce rationing.

(the second section lets the president establish mechanisms to control the allocation of materials/services/facilities, and is what allows the feds to, say, force a car manufacturing plant to produce ventilators)

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Regardless, 3M and other major players have already been near to full production capacity for months and that's just in the USA. The rest of the world was working prior to that and we are STILL at a world wide shortage. 

But yea, now that the USA is starting to recognize this as an issue everything will be fixed.

Don't strawman me. I didn't say that there is not a worldwide shortage, or that things would be solved by the US.

What I did say is that, if infection rates start to plateau over the next few months, we could see a situation in the summer where the NHL could hold a modified playoffs before the 20-21 season (ethically, because, if infection rates plateau, then pressure on medical workers and essential services might potentially be eased to the point where they aren't facing mass shortages of PPE/et al., and the NHL could purchase some without exacerbating a bad situation).

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(ThEy JuSt StArTeD tO RaMp Up CaPaCiTy)

Finally, take the snark somewhere else. It's uncalled for, and I have no patience for it.

Edited by CJ Boiss

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Posted (edited)
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Ah, no, the first section of the DPA authorizes the president to require that businesses accept and prioritize contracts for materials that are necessary for national defence. Showing up at an airport tarmac and waving stacks of cash around to buy a shipment of Chinese PPE bound for France is not that. Forcing a supplier to accept a contract, and throwing money at a supplier until they voluntarily cancel or delay other contracts, are not the same thing. The federal government is not utilizing the DPA when it purchases and hoards critical medical supplies.

Those links are more akin to showcase how the USA is willing to pillage existing shipments to their own lack preparedness. This in turn adds weight to the fact that the USA, with the DPA, has taken existing contracts with other countries (Canada) and pushed them to the back of the queue. A queue that was already extremely long due to the demand being at an all time high, supply being low, and the production already at capacity. 

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Don't strawman me. I didn't say that there is not a worldwide shortage, or that things would be solved by the US.

What I did say is that, if infection rates start to plateau over the next few months, we could see a situation in the summer where the NHL could hold a modified playoffs before the 20-21 season (ethically, because, if infection rates plateau, then pressure on medical workers and essential services might potentially be eased to the point where they aren't facing mass shortages of PPE/et al., and the NHL could purchase some without exacerbating a bad situation).

You don't need to directly say it when you've showcased that you think that supply lines are going to catch up in time in the summer for kits and PPE equipment to be easily readily available as 

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Production of PPE and testing kits is ramping up, and come the summer it's unlikely that hospitals and healthcare providers will be facing shortages of either.

Production has been increase 5-6 times in China over the past 3 months. China, which produces 50% of the worlds masks, is still estimating a 4-6 month backlog to meet world demand. With the USA essentially only on the onset of this, there is still a huge amount of ground to cover before supply=demand. 

It's pretty tough to say that since the US is "ramping up production" (hint: it's been like that for months) that hospitals in the US will be all stocked up. 

Edited by coopaloop1234

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If you're interested:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

This is a great idea to see how each country stacks when it comes to new cases/deaths/etc. 

Canada is having a hard time getting PPE and meeting demand and we have less TOTAL cases than the USA had NEW cases as of April 14. Hell, today the count in the US is a brand new 26,000 cases. Keep in mind that both countries ONLY test people that are either in healthcare or showing harsh symptoms. The USA is only at the beginning of this and as the thing spreads, the demand throughout the country is going to increase. 

We are still a far ways off of the infection rate leveling out in Canada, let alone the mess of a Country that the USA is and that's going to translate to supply issues with PPE and Testing Equipment. 

You may very well be right, but, the majority of the evidence is showing otherwise and arguing against it just doesn't make sense to me. That's why I got "snarky". 

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23 minutes ago, coopaloop1234 said:

Those links are more akin to showcase how the USA is willing to pillage existing shipments to their own lack preparedness. This in turn adds weight to the fact that the USA, with the DPA, has taken existing contracts with other countries (Canada) and pushed them to the back of the queue. A queue that was already extremely long due to the demand being at an all time high, supply being low, and the production already at capacity. 

Yeah, the United States federal administration is full of malicious and ignorant assholes. We've known that for almost four years.

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You don't need to directly say it when you've showcased that you think that supply lines are going to catch up in time in the summer for kits and PPE equipment to be easily readily available as 

When you make assumptions about what I think, you get things wrong. When you build an argument off of those incorrect assumptions you make strawmen, and that doesn't benefit anyone.

You don't need to make any assumptions about what I think; I'm more than happy you tell you, all you have to do is ask.

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Production has been increase 5-6 times in China over the past 3 months. China, which produces 50% of the worlds masks, is still estimating a 4-6 month backlog to meet world demand. With the USA essentially only on the onset of this, there is still a huge amount of ground to cover before supply=demand.

It's pretty tough to say that since the US is "ramping up production" (hint: it's been like that for months) that hospitals in the US will be all stocked up. 

The combination of increasing domestic production, and a worldwide plateau of infection rates (more pertinent in the United States, and certain to trail the international response, is a domestic plateau of infection rates) could ease the pressure enough that, in three months time, hospitals in the US aren't experiencing shortages.

The situation changes weekly. The CCP could (potentially) convert more of their manufacturing facilities to produce even more PPE than they already are. Plateauing infection rates in Europe could result in surplus PPE being shipped to hotspots like the US (this is already happening. Internationally, Canada shipped PPE to the CCP during the onset of their outbreak, and after they plateaued the CCP sent PPE back to us. Domestically, Alberta Health Services is shipping surplus PPE to Ontario and Quebec). A lot can happen in three months time, and there's no way to tell what the situation will look like even a month in advance.

(also, I saw the original version of your response. Thank you for editing it)

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1 minute ago, coopaloop1234 said:

If you're interested:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

This is a great idea to see how each country stacks when it comes to new cases/deaths/etc. 

Canada is having a hard time getting PPE and meeting demand and we have less TOTAL cases than the USA had NEW cases as of April 14. Hell, today the count in the US is a brand new 26,000 cases. Keep in mind that both countries ONLY test people that are either in healthcare or showing harsh symptoms. The USA is only at the beginning of this and as the thing spreads, the demand throughout the country is going to increase. 

We are still a far ways off of the infection rate leveling out in Canada, let alone the mess of a Country that the USA is and that's going to translate to supply issues with PPE and Testing Equipment. 

You may very well be right, but, the majority of the evidence is showing otherwise and arguing against it just doesn't make sense to me. That's why I got "snarky". 

I mostly agree. All of the evidence points towards the next month being extremely rough. But we don't know what May will be like until we know what happens in April. And we don't know what June will be like until we know what happens in May.

Getting back to the original point, I don't see any reason why the NHL should officially scuttle the season now, when the potential for a salvaged playoffs still (theoretically) exists.

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