Covid-19 – The Steps Back to the Ice

[Teezle]

21 minutes ago, estogoalie said:

The survey was done by Carnegie Mellon University and the University of Pittsburgh and had 5 million participants, it's not a Reddit poll with 20 people. And looking at other stats in the poll, eg. they found rural Trump supports and young black people are also very vaccine hesitant, I would say it mirrors many other surveys. I wouldn't say it's "baseless"...and how do you "peer review" an on-line survey anyway (?)

Regarding vaccine passports, it's not just like you can't go to a concert or something, people are losing jobs, kicked out of schools, not allowed to travel to see families, etc. Then there's the question of your right to medical privacy and other issues, eg. what if hackers download vaccine passport databases and dump all your details online somewhere? Oh wait, they already did that.

Vaccine requirements to go to school have been around for ages; another one is nothing new. If your job requires it, get it or find a new job. Better yet, get it to protect yourself and others, and then don't worry about what your job requires or doesn't require. It is also in the context of it being required for jobs in healthcare, elder care, airlines - all jobs where you come into contact with sick or vulnerable people, or many people of indeterminate status every day. Flying on a plane is not a fundamental human right.

21 minutes ago, estogoalie said:

And yes, mRNA has been around a while. Here's a 3 hour interview with one of the inventors of it. He is himself vaccinated, but points out some issues and dangers about the vaccine and how it's being rolled out.

The Dr. Malone from that interview has been pushing very questionable interpretations for many years. Here is a good article about it: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/08/robert-malone-vaccine-inventor-vaccine-skeptic/619734/ To quote the article "He's fucking up his chance at a Nobel Prize."

21 minutes ago, estogoalie said:

...and sadly, young, healthy people are also dying from the vaccine  Yes, it's a very small percentage, but then COVID deaths in young, healthy people are also a very small percentage. So pick your poison. Literally.

Please stop conflating these two things. The side effects from the AZ shot (not even an mRNA vaccine) in the article you linked were 417 cases and 72 deaths out of nearly 49,000,000 doses - that particular blood clot has a ~0.00015% chance to show up, and shows up basically exclusively in women. The rate of getting similar blood clots from birth control is ~0.065% per year (0.3% to 1% increased risk over 10 years), making it more than 400x more likely than getting it from the shot. And yet women everywhere still use hormonal birth control without a second thought.

With billions of doses of mRNA vaccines administered around the world, if there was some awful side effect in any significant percentage, it would have shown up already. It is not picking your poison - it is picking between protecting yourself and others , and picking to not even care about yourself.

[estogoalie]

9 minutes ago, Teezle said:

Vaccine requirements to go to school have been around for ages; another one is nothing new. If your job requires it, get it or find a new job. Better yet, get it to protect yourself and others, and then don't worry about what your job requires or doesn't require. It is also in the context of it being required for jobs in healthcare, elder care, airlines - all jobs where you come into contact with sick or vulnerable people, or many people of indeterminate status every day. Flying on a plane is not a fundamental human right.

The Dr. Malone from that interview has been pushing very questionable interpretations for many years. Here is a good article about it: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/08/robert-malone-vaccine-inventor-vaccine-skeptic/619734/ To quote the article "He's fucking up his chance at a Nobel Prize."

Please stop conflating these two things. The side effects from the AZ shot (not even an mRNA vaccine) in the article you linked were 417 cases and 72 deaths out of nearly 49,000,000 doses - that particular blood clot has a ~0.00015% chance to show up, and shows up basically exclusively in women. The rate of getting similar blood clots from birth control is ~0.065% per year (0.3% to 1% increased risk over 10 years), making it more than 400x more likely than getting it from the shot. And yet women everywhere still use hormonal birth control without a second thought.

With billions of doses of mRNA vaccines administered around the world, if there was some awful side effect in any significant percentage, it would have shown up already. It is not picking your poison - it is picking between protecting yourself and others , and picking to not even care about yourself.

I read the full Atlantic article you linked, it tried to discredit him because he was on Tucker Carlson, and ramled about if he was really the inventor or not, but otherwise I agreed with most of it.

From the article:

Quote

His objections to the Pfizer and Moderna shots have to do mostly with their expedited approval process and with the government’s system for tracking adverse reactions. Speaking as a doctor, he would probably recommend their use only for those at highest risk from COVID-19.
I’ve listened to hours of Malone’s interviews and read through the many pages of documents he’s posted. He is a knowledgeable scientist with a knack for lucid explanation. Malone is not a subscriber to the more out-there conspiracy theories regarding COVID-19 vaccines.

Regarding the article I linked to the BBC reporter, since those numbers of vaccine deaths you gave are not from a "peer-reviewed" paper, I can scientifically say it's "baseless"  

But really, most countries are relying on self-reported cases to count vaccine deaths and injuries. Which is I guess about as random and reliable as a Facebook survey (?) In the US they have VAERS website to report vaccine incidences. Here's a summary of the data. More vaccine reported deaths than all others combined. There were +6,000 reported deaths in the US in a 7 month span. Reuters "Fact Check" says it's not false, but "missing context" that just because someone dies soon after taking the vaccine does not imply the vaccine killed them. Fair enough. But that's what the best data available says.

[Teezle]

15 minutes ago, estogoalie said:

I read the full Atlantic article you linked, it tried to discredit him because he was on Tucker Carlson, and ramled about if he was really the inventor or not, but otherwise I agreed with most of it.

From the article:

Regarding the article I linked to the BBC reporter, since those numbers of vaccine deaths you gave are not from a "peer-reviewed" paper, I can scientifically say it's "baseless"  

But really, most countries are relying on self-reported cases to count vaccine deaths and injuries. Which is I guess about as random and reliable as a Facebook survey (?) In the US they have VAERS website to report vaccine incidences. Here's a summary of the data. More vaccine reported deaths than all others combined. There were +6,000 reported deaths in the US in a 7 month span. Reuters "Fact Check" says it's not false, but "missing context" that just because someone dies soon after taking the vaccine does not imply the vaccine killed them. Fair enough. But that's what the best data available says.

1) The underlying numbers from that article are taken directly from data from the UK government website. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

2) He contributed to the work in its infancy that eventually gave us the mRNA vaccines we have today. That doesn't make him the ultimate authority on it - and his recommendation to only give it to high-risk patients goes against the recommendation from many thousands of other doctors to give it to everyone 12+ as fast as we can. Streamlining regulatory red tape is not the same as rushing the development of the vaccine (implying that it is somehow unsafe); it still went through rigorous clinical trials with thousands of patients, and the data was reviewed (with priority) just as it would have been otherwise. Phase 3 clinical trials for the Pfizer vaccine included more than 43000 people; this compares similarly with 4000-22000 people in various clinical studies for statins (cholesterol lowering drugs that are used ubiquitously).

Sources: https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-conclude-phase-3-study-covid-19-vaccine

https://www.lipid.org/sites/default/files/2-_lipid_u-_landmark_clinical_trials-_brown.pdf

3) You yourself said that countries are relying on self-reported; VAERS is no different. https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/dataguide.html - anyone can submit a report saying almost anything to this database; they are not verified to be accurate in any way. Any information coming from that database (and other like it) should be taken with a hefty dose of salt.

[Naz]

18 minutes ago, Teezle said:

VAERS is no different. https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/dataguide.html - anyone can submit a report saying almost anything to this database; they are not verified to be accurate in any way. Any information coming from that database (and other like it) should be taken with a hefty dose of salt.

It is well known that the minions/sheep of Mercola, Tenpenny et: al post completely fabricated events to this Database.

[coopaloop1234]

19 minutes ago, Naz said:

It is well known that the minions/sheep of Mercola, Tenpenny et: al post completely fabricated events to this Database.

It's like all the data that props up the vaccine as dangerous or ineffective is faulty and/or wrong,

[estogoalie]

24 minutes ago, Teezle said:

3) You yourself said that countries are relying on self-reported; VAERS is no different. https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/dataguide.html - anyone can submit a report saying almost anything to this database; they are not verified to be accurate in any way. Any information coming from that database (and other like it) should be taken with a hefty dose of salt.

Exactly, how do we "follow the science" here, if the best there is available is an unvalidated self-reporting database? Isn't that kind of alarming?

 

[coopaloop1234]

On 8/27/2021 at 5:41 PM, estogoalie said:

Exactly, how do we "follow the science" here, if the best there is available is an unvalidated self-reporting database? Isn't that kind of alarming?

That's not the best though lol. A lot of the other governing bodies have data collection that can only be supplies by valid sources (AKA health authorities).

VAERS is literally a data amassing source where anyone can submit "data". It's not confirmed or validated in any shape or form.

No offense man but the reasoning to distrust the VAERS data is literally posted by them on their own front page. Considering it completely contradicts multiple world wide data sources, why would you put any faith into it?

[estogoalie]

40 minutes ago, Naz said:

It is well known that the minions/sheep of Mercola, Tenpenny et: al post completely fabricated events to this Database.

One the one-hand you can say it's over-reported with fake cases, and that may well be true. On the other-hand, you could also say that people are not aware of it or failing to register actual cases there, so you can also say that it's being under-reported, and that may well be true also.

The sad reality is that this is the best, and only, vaccine death/injury reporting system there is. It's this or nothing.

[coopaloop1234]

8 minutes ago, estogoalie said:

The sad reality is that this is the best, and only, vaccine death/injury reporting system there is. It's this or nothing.

lol what? Fuck me dude.

[estogoalie]

4 minutes ago, coopaloop1234 said:

lol what? Fuck me dude.

You're going to have to send me a few pics first, I'm not so easy

...but seriously, what are you talking about? In the US, if you get sick or dies from a vaccine, that's where you report it. The CDC and FDA then review it and track it.

[coopaloop1234]

1 hour ago, estogoalie said:

You're going to have to send me a few pics first, I'm not so easy

...but seriously, what are you talking about? In the US, if you get sick or dies from a vaccine, that's where you report it. The CDC and FDA then review it and track it.

No they don't lol. They only mandate that healthcare professionals report and follow a strict guidelines. Any other volunteary reports aren't confirmed. All of this is confirmed in their FAQ. 

It's typical data management, garbage in, garbage out. 

[MTH]

I just got this email from my company with the subject line:

"REMINDER -  ACTION REQUIRED - Return to Office Guidelines"

Here's what it said:

Quote

All: Just a REMINDER to Voluntarily complete the attached Covid-19 vaccine status consent form whether you are vaccinated or not.   The more forms that we receive, the better knowledge we have as a company to move forward with various policies.   In addition, if you are vaccinated, please provide proof of vaccination in addition to the consent form.  Lastly for projects that are requiring vaccinations, please complete the consent form and proof of vaccination expeditiously so that we are compliant with the project. 

 

Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns. 

"Action required" to do a voluntary form? What?

I'm shot up, but I'm too lazy to find the record, type it in, and then submit it... especially "expeditiously" as requested.

[RichMan]

26 minutes ago, MTH said:

I just got this email from my company with the subject line:

"REMINDER -  ACTION REQUIRED - Return to Office Guidelines"

Here's what it said:

"Action required" to do a voluntary form? What?

I'm shot up, but I'm too lazy to find the record, type it in, and then submit it... especially "expeditiously" as requested.

I went through the same nonsense from a previous job a couple years ago. I refused to participate based on the "voluntary" statement and I was shit on big time. Lost a days work without pay as punishment.

Transparency is a lost art in the business world. "Say what you mean. Mean what you say".

[Naz]

Back on the ice last night at the arena on the Naval Base here in Victoria, BC.  All arenas (and any indoor venue for that matter) will require a proof of vaccination, which I have downloaded onto my phone.  Masks also required inside, including in dressing rooms.  Felt great to be back playing, on the ice again Friday morning!

[coopaloop1234]

14 minutes ago, Naz said:

Back on the ice last night at the arena on the Naval Base here in Victoria, BC.  All arenas (and any indoor venue for that matter) will require a proof of vaccination, which I have downloaded onto my phone.  Masks also required inside, including in dressing rooms.  Felt great to be back playing, on the ice again Friday morning!

Everyone ends up taking their masks off in the dressings rooms here on the mainland.

Most people don't care and I assume it'll be even less worrysome once it's passport or bust.

[Naz]

1 minute ago, coopaloop1234 said:

Everyone ends up taking their masks off in the dressings rooms here on the mainland.

 

same over here, except at this Arena.  We are on the base itself, and the Arena is run by the DND, they spot check into the dressing rooms, and if you aren't abiding by their rules, you lose the ice time for the year, NO refund!!!

[coopaloop1234]

4 minutes ago, Naz said:

same over here, except at this Arena.  We are on the base itself, and the Arena is run by the DND, they spot check into the dressing rooms, and if you aren't abiding by their rules, you lose the ice time for the year, NO refund!!!

No masks on the ice right?

[Naz]

17 minutes ago, coopaloop1234 said:

No masks on the ice right?

Correct, nor in the showers 

[Wonder35]

We begin play on Monday, September 13, 3 one hour ice times per week.

It is imperative to show proof of vaccination (at least one dose) and two doses by October 24. You need only bring your vaccination ID once if already double dosed.

Masks in the building except on the bench/ice.  Dressing Room use of masks is a hard rule with zero exceptions.

We have 15 minutes when entering the building until game time and a similar period to undress and leave the arena. Showers are available but the 15 minute clock is running.  Usually we have an hour fifteen ice time but lose that 1/4 hour which is used by the arena staff to disinfect the Dressing Rooms for the next rental.

 

Still, we are playing hockey again!

[coopaloop1234]

18 minutes ago, Wonder35 said:

 1/4 hour which is used by the arena staff to disinfect the Dressing Rooms for the next rental.

 

[estogoalie]

Just got back from training. Been on the ice about 5 times in the last couple of weeks. Last season was cancelled due to lockdowns, so we only managed a handful of trainings. Switzerland expands "vaccine passports" on Monday to include sports, altho team trainings seem to exempt, so I think it will only be required for games. But I know many players who don't want the vaccine, so I wonder how this will impact the game situation.

How is it for everyone else here? Less players on the ice since vaccine passport mandates? Or no real difference?

[Naz]

24 minutes ago, estogoalie said:

 

How is it for everyone else here? Less players on the ice since vaccine passport mandates? Or no real difference?

I play with 5 different groups.  We have not lost a single player out of those over 100 players.  Every single one is Double Vaccinated.

[insertnamehere]

I live in a particularly low vaccine uptake area and last Friday it was implemented that you need to show proof of vaccination to enter the facility. We had 8 skaters last night. It's not looking promising for there to be much hockey this winter in my area. 

[SaveByRichter35]

On 9/8/2021 at 5:47 PM, Wonder35 said:

We begin play on Monday, September 13, 3 one hour ice times per week.

It is imperative to show proof of vaccination (at least one dose) and two doses by October 24. You need only bring your vaccination ID once if already double dosed.

Masks in the building except on the bench/ice.  Dressing Room use of masks is a hard rule with zero exceptions.

We have 15 minutes when entering the building until game time and a similar period to undress and leave the arena. Showers are available but the 15 minute clock is running.  Usually we have an hour fifteen ice time but lose that 1/4 hour which is used by the arena staff to disinfect the Dressing Rooms for the next rental.

 

Still, we are playing hockey again!

Jesus you're league is 9 months behind my league.  This is pretty close to what we were doing when we started playing again...in January 2021 

edit - oh shit!  Today is the 13th...how'd it go??!?!???!!!!???????!!!?!??!?!!??

[Wonder35]

For the first 10 minutes I felt and probably looked like Bambi on ice.  After a dozen shots the old body responded. I had a shutout going until 2/3 into the game. Dang, it felt wonderful to be back. Round Two on Friday.

The only pads/gloves I have are all leather so a bit heavy but look and feel so familiar. The kid is back!

Thanks for asking.