Scary Collision

[SaveByRichter35]

Well played @seagoal

[creasecollector]

Hope you're feeling alright after this hit man. Always hate it when that happens.

[Fullright]

Poke check or no, dude was doing the crash the goalie move. BS too how he acted as if he cared and went through the motions of checking on you. Hope you're ok. 

[A.YOUNGoalie13]

Glad to see you’re alright @seagoal

Do mens league teams get lucky with having doctors or first responders on teams or how does that work? My youth league hires and sends a trainer to games just in case something happens. Just curious because your one teammate came right out to you.

[seagoal]

26 minutes ago, A.YOUNGoalie13 said:

Glad to see you’re alright @seagoal

Do mens league teams get lucky with having doctors or first responders on teams or how does that work? My youth league hires and sends a trainer to games just in case something happens. Just curious because your one teammate came right out to you.

Thank you. I'm doing better. My neck is no longer throbbing and it's just slightly sore if I turn my head right far enough to engage my shoulder.

Of course there are doctors and therapists who play.  One guy I know is an ER doctor and on our skates he'd be the guy to step in with injuries.  It just varies.

As far as I know nobody on this blue team is a doctor, the guy who skates up to me didn't do anything medically. 

Generally men's/beer league do not have any medical personnel on hand at the rinks. Serious injuries would be a 911 call scenario. This rink in the video is the Kraken facility but it was late at night so their doctors aren't around.

[seagoal]

2 hours ago, Fullright said:

Poke check or no, dude was doing the crash the goalie move. BS too how he acted as if he cared and went through the motions of checking on you. Hope you're ok. 

I was wondering if I had any responsibility for this given I chose to poke check.  I could have tripped him, I guess.

But I most certainly did not trip him.  I got the puck/his blade clean,  did so from within the crease, and his path is set to go through me before the poke check.  He cut right way too late.

I'm biased,  granted,  but that's my take.

[Fullright]

41 minutes ago, seagoal said:

I was wondering if I had any responsibility for this given I chose to poke check.  I could have tripped him, I guess.

But I most certainly did not trip him.  I got the puck/his blade clean,  did so from within the crease, and his path is set to go through me before the poke check.  He cut right way too late.

I'm biased,  granted,  but that's my take.

Absolutely not. A poke check is a legit play. He was angled up and going to crash you no matter what goalie move you made. I know you got banged up but you showed great restraint not knocking him on his ass and to be honest, I hoped for a better response from your team. The dude has a history and is going to do it again even if he is barred from your league until someone makes him realize that taking such liberties will generate a response. Btw, love how the ref doesnt show up in the frame until the very end. 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Fullright

[bunnyman666]

Agree with @Fullright

[ArdeFIN]

I tried not to write this out, but after looking the video through like over ten times and more so repeating the first 10 seconds. 

I see the player turning in to his right and going over just outside the crease. His doing this line more propably to avoid any contact with the D coming in behind him and at same time trying at some level to avoid contact with the goalie too.

When goalie attacks with poke check, he hits also on players inside skate (turning towards player right - inside) and the player having trouble handling himself with his skates looses his control and direction totally and collides you. And at the same time you have pushed your upper body to that "new" line the skater has fallen into.

I think the rule states that when a player collides with goalie without being pushed by D it's players responsibility. But I can't see any effort on players side to try and collide with you. His skating line at first isn't towards the goalie but to the front of the goal. Lacking skating skills and trying more than can be achieved is a lower level game problem and that might be a reason for the player doing this same thing repeatedly.

This play reminds me of a WWC final game where Finland made a goal that was rejected after a long debate. There was the same situation where player was clearing by the goalie nicely but with goalies own effort the player eventually hits the goalie.

Not to attack you Seagoal, but I have to say that I would never do such a tigers leap against a player skating in, maybe do a poke check and going down to BF to block the ice and at the same be ready if the player runs over me.

[SaveByRichter35]

18 hours ago, A.YOUNGoalie13 said:

Glad to see you’re alright @seagoal

Do mens league teams get lucky with having doctors or first responders on teams or how does that work? My youth league hires and sends a trainer to games just in case something happens. Just curious because your one teammate came right out to you.

Lol no.  The refs don't even wanna be there.

[seagoal]

9 hours ago, ArdeFIN said:

I tried not to write this out, but after looking the video through like over ten times and more so repeating the first 10 seconds. 

I see the player turning in to his right and going over just outside the crease. His doing this line more propably to avoid any contact with the D coming in behind him and at same time trying at some level to avoid contact with the goalie too.

When goalie attacks with poke check, he hits also on players inside skate (turning towards player right - inside) and the player having trouble handling himself with his skates looses his control and direction totally and collides you. And at the same time you have pushed your upper body to that "new" line the skater has fallen into.

I think the rule states that when a player collides with goalie without being pushed by D it's players responsibility. But I can't see any effort on players side to try and collide with you. His skating line at first isn't towards the goalie but to the front of the goal. Lacking skating skills and trying more than can be achieved is a lower level game problem and that might be a reason for the player doing this same thing repeatedly.

This play reminds me of a WWC final game where Finland made a goal that was rejected after a long debate. There was the same situation where player was clearing by the goalie nicely but with goalies own effort the player eventually hits the goalie.

Not to attack you Seagoal, but I have to say that I would never do such a tigers leap against a player skating in, maybe do a poke check and going down to BF to block the ice and at the same be ready if the player runs over me.

I'm glad you did write this, so thank you.  I always appreciate a point-counterpoint discussion and I'm never upset with disagreement or contrary thoughts.  

I agree with you that my action played a part in the severity of the collision. Had I done nothing, just stood there upright on my feet, the collision, if any, would not have been so hard or painful.  I guess ultimately the question to consider for the committee that is looking at this and considering his suspension is: did the goalie's action cause the collision? Or,  Would the collision not have happened without the action of the goalie?

 I think it is important to note that the collision happened inside the crease.  I ended up pretty deep on the goal line and at no point in the video is any part of me, other than my right skate, outside of the crease.   Had I come out to the slot and this happened, that would be different. But I remained in the crease for the entire play, which means his path must have been through the crease or else the collision would not have occurred. My head is the furtherst forward (towards the slot) point of me at contact and it is still in the crease.  My glove hand is forward too and it is clearly in the crease.  The first pic here is just before my stick hits the puck and he is already on a path through the crease, hence through me. 

So I guess the only way it can be deemed that I caused this collision would be to agree that a skater has the right to skate through the crease on a breakaway type of play and that they have just as much a right to do that as a goalie has to be in the crease defending the goal.   The crease would be just another path among any other that a skater has a right to skate through and be in. 

So while I do agree my action made the collision worse, I can't see how my action caused the collision.  

Thoughts?

[bunnyman666]

@seagoal I think he was going to plow through whether you poke checked or not. I looked at the stills and the video again. Heads-down and straight into the crease. And if you were my goalie and I were your D man, all 5’ 8 1/2” of this Yorkshire Terrier type D man (Coach Chicken used to call me a Yorkie: small in stature but mean as frack) would have lit up Mack Truck for that play;  I probably would have been kicked out of the league. Poke checking is a legit contact play in any league for any position. That was my go to as a third line winger (D minded), as a D man in men’s league, and as a goalie. The kids don’t know how to play against poke checks from a goalie, and my use of the stick forces passes to the point or behind the net. @ArdeFIN did make a good counterpoint.

[ArdeFIN]

Thoughts. Hmm. I still see a attacking player overthinking his skating skills versus speed and head down, but he isn't in a path through the crease before your poke check hits his supporting legs skate (right foot) and turns it into cutting angle which then sends him over you in force. He definetly isn't in a stabil position even before the poke hits, and his left leg is wandering dangerously towards you.

I can't see that guy rushing over you but trying to score with too much speed for skills. And I would give him atleast 2min penalty, he isn't thrown to you by a D. Then again I don't know if the rules say anything about goalie tripping a player onto himself (with poke check for instance).

These do happen in the big lights too, I doesn't take a lot to disrupt ones skating enough to make bad things happen from nothing.

Edited February 6, 2022 by ArdeFIN

[seagoal]

7 hours ago, ArdeFIN said:

Thoughts. Hmm. I still see a attacking player overthinking his skating skills versus speed and head down, but he isn't in a path through the crease before your poke check hits his supporting legs skate (right foot) and turns it into cutting angle which then sends him over you in force. He definetly isn't in a stabil position even before the poke hits, and his left leg is wandering dangerously towards you.

I can't see that guy rushing over you but trying to score with too much speed for skills. And I would give him atleast 2min penalty, he isn't thrown to you by a D. Then again I don't know if the rules say anything about goalie tripping a player onto himself (with poke check for instance).

These do happen in the big lights too, I doesn't take a lot to disrupt ones skating enough to make bad things happen from nothing.

I hear you buddy.  I don't know what else to say without being redundant. 

In terms of USA Hockey rules,  contact with goalies is addressed in both Charging and Interference:

https://www.usahockeyrulebook.com/page/show/1084651-rule-607-charging

https://www.usahockeyrulebook.com/page/show/1084676-rule-625-interference

[A.YOUNGoalie13]

16 hours ago, SaveByRichter35 said:

Lol no.  The refs don't even wanna be there.

Are you sure you want to be there?

 

[chile57]

Thoughts (some of which are echoed in previous posts)...

I think the only "fault" on you here is that you knew the guy has a penchant for doing this and you still gave yourself up on the poke check. Example - I play an organized drop in on Mondays with an asshat that habitually has his head down and also thinks he's super sweet with his wicked rad arsenal of moves. At first - I'd play it as I would anyone else - be aggressive and come out to the top of the crease and whatnot. After plowing me in back to back weeks and some choice words exchanged (this is just drop in after all so we are all supposed to be "friendly") I just decided that if this guy gets a breakaway - I'm just going to stand on the goal line shooter tutor style and let him look like a clown. Granted - yours is a game situation so I'd have the same hard time you probably would by sitting back and giving him a clear avenue to score.

Regardless of where you are (even if its out of the crease) the onus is on the player to avoid contact with the goalie (particularly in noncontact beer league). The example I'm thinking of here is the Lucic hit on Miller a few years ago ("gutless piece of shit"). Goalies are never fare game - in or out of the crease. That said - if you are initiating the contact - I don't think you can register too many complaints. The example I'm thinking of here is the Hasek "hit" on Gaborik from a number of years ago. Links to both of these below.

In this particular instance - you are in your crease making a hockey play. You aren't outwardly lunging at the guys legs to trip him up or anything. Neither of your defensemen body him into you. In my opinion - this is 100% on him - having his head down is no excuse. This is most certainly a downside from having a complete mixed bag of skill levels out there. Also as mentioned - I wouldn't be expecting a Slap Shot scenario here but pretty disappointing that none of your teammates answered the bell. Again - not expecting a line brawl or anything but at the very least - move him away from your proximity. I know if somebody ran me - I wouldn't want them anywhere near me. Example - a couple seasons ago I got into it with a player about his over-aggressiveness (after he boarded my defenseman) - nose to nose. Next thing I know - one of my guys comes flying into the play and tackles that clown. I don't mind the aggressiveness but you can't be out there acting reckless. Course has to correct at some point. Which brings me to my last point - I don't know how the refs are in your guys necks of the woods but where I play I would say 99% of the debauchery that goes on could be avoided if refs just policed the game early on and made a couple calls (even airing on the side of ticky tack). Call the first couple hacking and whackings, elbow, high stick, what have you and then things don't start to escalate. Instead - as noted - they just want to keep the game moving and get out of there. Then they bitch when guys start getting testy/taking things a bit far/attempt to police themselves.

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by chile57

[seagoal]

5 hours ago, chile57 said:

Thoughts (some of which are echoed in previous posts)...

I think the only "fault" on you here is that you knew the guy has a penchant for doing this and you still gave yourself up on the poke check. Example - I play an organized drop in on Mondays with an asshat that habitually has his head down and also thinks he's super sweet with his wicked rad arsenal of moves. At first - I'd play it as I would anyone else - be aggressive and come out to the top of the crease and whatnot. After plowing me in back to back weeks and some choice words exchanged (this is just drop in after all so we are all supposed to be "friendly") I just decided that if this guy gets a breakaway - I'm just going to stand on the goal line shooter tutor style and let him look like a clown. Granted - yours is a game situation so I'd have the same hard time you probably would by sitting back and giving him a clear avenue to score.

Regardless of where you are (even if its out of the crease) the onus is on the player to avoid contact with the goalie (particularly in noncontact beer league). The example I'm thinking of here is the Lucic hit on Miller a few years ago ("gutless piece of shit"). Goalies are never fare game - in or out of the crease. That said - if you are initiating the contact - I don't think you can register too many complaints. The example I'm thinking of here is the Hasek "hit" on Gaborik from a number of years ago. Links to both of these below.

In this particular instance - you are in your crease making a hockey play. You aren't outwardly lunging at the guys legs to trip him up or anything. Neither of your defensemen body him into you. In my opinion - this is 100% on him - having his head down is no excuse. This is most certainly a downside from having a complete mixed bag of skill levels out there. Also as mentioned - I wouldn't be expecting a Slap Shot scenario here but pretty disappointing that none of your teammates answered the bell here. Again - not expecting a line brawl or anything but at the very least - move him away from your proximity. I know if somebody ran me - I wouldn't want them anywhere near me. Example - a couple seasons ago I got into it with a player about his over-aggressiveness (after he boarded my defenseman) - nose to nose. Next thing I know - one of my guys comes flying into the play and tackles that clown. I don't mind the aggressiveness but you can't be out there acting reckless. Course has to correct at some point. Which brings me to my last point - I don't know how the refs are in your guys necks of the woods but where I play I would say 99% of the debauchery that goes on could be avoided if refs just policed the game early on and made a couple calls (even airing on the side of ticky tack). Call the first couple hacking and whackings, elbow, high stick, what have you and then things don't start to escalate. Instead - as noted - they just want to keep the game moving and get out of there. Then they bitch when guys start getting testy/taking things a bit far/attempts to police themselves.

 

Thanks for the post....and the Hasek clip.  I love that clip, he was insane.  The flip by Gaborik is epic. 

One point of clarification....I don't know the guy who hit me and didn't know he was on probation for running goalies.  I found that out in the locker room after the game.  Just pointing that out.  Everything else you say is all good, though.

[chile57]

Misunderstanding on my part then - my bad. But like I said - even if you did know about this guys antics - it'd probably just strengthen my resolve to stop this guy in a game scenario where somebody is keeping score. I definitely don't fault you here - hence the quotes. I still stick by "Regardless of where you are (even if its out of the crease) the onus is on the player to avoid contact with the goalie (particularly in noncontact beer league)." Its not like you left him with no alternative other than to make contact with you. Dick move by that guy. He's probably the same guy that does that and then immediately says "What'd I do?". We all know that guy.

[Puckstopper]

On 2/6/2022 at 4:22 AM, ArdeFIN said:

 

I see the player turning in to his right and going over just outside the crease. His doing this line more propably to avoid any contact with the D coming in behind him and at same time trying at some level to avoid contact with the goalie too.

 

Here's the issue I have with this:   The guy has (allegedly) been warned about this sort of play often enough to warrant suspension.  That means he's done it at least 2-3 previous times and possibly more.   At that point it's incumbent on the skater to get his head up. 

[seagoal]

Update:  there will be no suspension for this collison.  The vote was split and a majority was needed for suspension. 

For the record, I don't feel anything one way or the other.  I'm relieved it's over, I'm not injured ongoing, and looking forward to playing more hockey. 

[coopaloop1234]

4 minutes ago, seagoal said:

Update:  there will be no suspension for this collison.  The vote was split and a majority was needed for suspension. 

For the record, I don't feel anything one way or the other.  I'm relieved it's over, I'm not injured ongoing, and looking forward to playing more hockey. 

 

Just sayin'

[seagoal]

13 minutes ago, coopaloop1234 said:

 

Just sayin'

Noted, ha.  That was my local team growing up.  He was wonderful to watch as a kid.

[coopaloop1234]

3 minutes ago, seagoal said:

Noted, ha.  That was my local team growing up.  He was wonderful to watch as a kid.

He was such a beauty.

Edited February 8, 2022 by coopaloop1234

[seagoal]

2 minutes ago, coopaloop1234 said:

He was such a beauty.

He looks so NASCAR

[chile57]

@seagoal I'm not surprised. I find leagues are lax on doling out penalties/suspensions/whatnot unless somebody really makes a stink/rattles the cage. Didn't seem like you were trending that way - basically just looking for confirmation that the guy was in fact in the wrong (which it seems most of us agreed with).

Onward and upward.