The CCM Brand

[Hills]

31 minutes ago, TheGoalNet said:

The P2 pad is in the category of lightest pad on the market. It will be one of those scenarios where you will need a scale to figure out if P2, Optik, G4 etc is the lightest 

I know many will consider CCM conservative, but P2 should be able to compete with any pad. Bauer is the only one doing things crazy differently 

You mean besides the crazy designs Warrior pads are since the G2? They are still ahead of everyone esle in regards to their bindingless designs and glove designs.

[TheGoalNet]

@Hills - sorry, was too vague. Just talking pads. P2 pads are very light. 

[Hills]

My statement stands with pads too though. Their bindingless design is like nothing else, while they haven't had a huge jump in innovation in a few iterations their pads still hold up and are leading edge.

[mik]

13 hours ago, stackem30 said:

Not to derail the conversation away from CCM, but I'm always a bit curious as to why so many people are so very set against leather straps.

I understand that they add unnecessary ounces to the pad, and that they take longer to strap up than velcro (neither bothers me, but you can't argue with either point). But on the other hand, they're sturdy, and they're bound to last much longer than stretchy velcro straps. What do people do when the straps have lost their elasticity, or the velcro has become all chewed up and lost much of its grip? Granted I buy my pads for the long(ggg) run, and some people here seem to go through lots of sets, and wouldn't need to worry about how their straps far after 5 years. It's all personal preference anyway, but I'm interested in why people feel strongly one way or the other.

11 hours ago, IPv6Freely said:

To go along with that, tne could easily say CCM is the Cadillac of goalie gear  

You replace them.  

Leather straps just don't have a lot of benefit anymore. Like lace toe ties they don't necessarily HINDER because people have basically just set them so that they don't do a whole lot. With lace toe ties most people are making the slack so long that they're basically doing nothing, which is why you get the "I have lace toe ties and have no problems" argument. Of course you're having no problems - they're literally not doing anything.

Another example is boot straps - the function they were added to the pad for isn't relevant anymore. In the case of the boot strap, they were originally added to goalie pads to ensure the pad doesn't rotate which is obviously no longer desired. 

All of that said, leather straps aren't considered a problem for most people because, for calf straps for example, they're so loose they almost might as well not even be there. They're literally doing very little at this point. The elastic straps allow you to wear your pad tighter to your leg (a good thing) while maintaining modern pad rotation (also a good thing). If you wore leather straps tightly, you wouldn't be able to properly execute a modern butterfly.

Like you said, it's personal preference but you're definitely going to see leather straps less and less because they just don't make sense on pads designed for the modern style.  

Leather straps are just about preference and how you want to wear your pad. I remember times, when we wore pads tight to legs to prevent rotation (two boot straps etc.) and then switched to loose straping with modern pads. I still use leather straps, because I don´t like pads tighter to my legs - tried that with elastics  - felt like in my old non rotating pads (I know it is not same anymore, but feel on legs was same) and don´t like it. Loose straping with elastics was little weird. Will try that again in the future? Maybe. Will experiment with toe-ties, but satisfied with leather straps for now.       

[IPv6Freely]

Sure, some people have a preference to use lace toe ties or other outdated stuff. Hell, some people still use combo masks. Nobody suggested it wasn’t preference. 

[TheGoalNet]

11 hours ago, Hills said:

My statement stands with pads too though. Their bindingless design is like nothing else, while they haven't had a huge jump in innovation in a few iterations their pads still hold up and are leading edge.

Okay, I understand what you are saying now. 

I feel like the Warrior pad is very similar to CCM though in terms of "per release" innovations. I mentioned Bauer because OD1N still feels fresh. Warrior G1, was 8 years ago? Since then it feels like they have followed the approach of minor evolutionary updates year over year, like a CCM and most companies. Some releases are evolutions and some are revolutions. G1 was a revolution and G4 was an evolution. 

 I get they are doing stuff that other people are not yet and it should not be overlooked yet. In terms of tech, the Warrior ridges dont feel as fresh as a new sew pad to me. Warrior is now in the 4th company to add a special sliding design. Bauer, CCM, and Brian's did it first. 

Between the 10.5" pads and how much the thigh rise can bend in a U shape from outer rolls to inner edge, there's a few things on Warrior pads I don't love. I know they have a great following and people love their product. For me personally, it's a brand I don't follow as closely as others. The same as some people don't love Brian's, think Vaughn and CCM are boring, etc etc 

I use a Warrior jock and bag and want to try the CR1. I also have Warrior player pants and gloves. I am not Anti Warrior at all. I just have an opinion and am sharing it. 

[coopaloop1234]

10 minutes ago, TheGoalNet said:

Between the 10.5" pads and how much the thigh rise can bend in a U shape from outer rolls to inner edge, there's a few things on Warrior pads I don't love. I know they have a great following and people love their product. For me personally, it's a brand I don't follow as closely as others. The same as some people don't love Brian's, think Vaughn and CCM are boring, etc etc

Mind elaborating on that? I don't think I've heard of this issue and don't think I can accurately picture what you're saying here.

[Hills]

32 minutes ago, TheGoalNet said:

Okay, I understand what you are saying now. 

I feel like the Warrior pad is very similar to CCM though in terms of "per release" innovations. I mentioned Bauer because OD1N still feels fresh. Warrior G1, was 8 years ago? Since then it feels like they have followed the approach of minor evolutionary updates year over year, like a CCM and most companies. Some releases are evolutions and some are revolutions. G1 was a revolution and G4 was an evolution. 

 I get they are doing stuff that other people are not yet and it should not be overlooked yet. In terms of tech, the Warrior ridges dont feel as fresh as a new sew pad to me. Warrior is now in the 4th company to add a special sliding design. Bauer, CCM, and Brian's did it first. 

Between the 10.5" pads and how much the thigh rise can bend in a U shape from outer rolls to inner edge, there's a few things on Warrior pads I don't love. I know they have a great following and people love their product. For me personally, it's a brand I don't follow as closely as others. The same as some people don't love Brian's, think Vaughn and CCM are boring, etc etc 

I use a Warrior jock and bag and want to try the CR1. I also have Warrior player pants and gloves. I am not Anti Warrior at all. I just have an opinion and am sharing it. 

I'd say the big jump in tech was on the Ritual G2s though. Warrior was the first with the hard knee wing and calf wing that stayed perpendicular with the pad. Now every company does that. That was a huge selling point for G2 pads and why I wanted a pair, correct me if I'm wrong with them introducing that.

Saying the following Ritual pads were evolutions is fair. But that is the same for Bauers pads. They were playing catch up until they came out with the 1S, the 1X is really a 1S.5 and the 2S seems to be another evolutionary step. Which is fine, but you have to give credit to the other companies that led with changes while Bauer was playing catchup.

I do agree the sliding ridges on the G4 are gimmicky to try and match SpeedSkin, Primo, and Bauer Coretech though. But my G2s still side as good if not better than 1S or my 1X.

CCM is currently playing catchup, Speedskin helps but the pads are still pretty traditional and aren't crazy light yet. While you have seen the P2 and I haven't, I'm still holding reservations until I pick them up in person. But I want to call ensure the other leading pads still get their credit.

[TheGoalNet]

@Hills Fair point on G2. My point with G1 is that OG Ritual was a massive change from the Messiah.

G2 and G1 are more similar than G1 and Messiah. I think 1S / 2S could be remembered in the same fashion. 1S was a major step up from NXG, but some of the changes with the 2S like knee landing, durability, etc could make the 2S and way better pad than 1S. Tomato / TAmato for sure. We're on the same page about the "epic" nature of certain releases. P2 honestly looks like a great pad, but CCM did not reinvent the wheel.  

CCM is becoming fascinating to me. They are #1 in the NHL with 50% market share and retail overall (not every store though or every location). However, people don't seem to find them innovative. I myself would call Brian's and Bauer the hottest innovators right now. However, CCM is in a different position. 

From CCM's standpoint, they don't worry about doing something new for the sake of it. They understand what a trend is and then put their spin on it without alienating their massive existing customer base. They usually don't do it first, but when their version comes out, it works pretty damn good. The pressure is on Bauer, Warrior, Vaughn, etc to do something differently to get people out of CCM. Not saying any strategy is right or wrong, I am just looking at it from a neutral perspective as someone who watches the business trends in hockey. 

As for the pads, P2 is in the same weight category as Optik FLY. I'd need the same scale and both pads to quantify that, but they are light.  In the same way Optik FLY weighs more than Optik FLX, P2 will be heavier due to the harder foams in its core. Hard foams weigh more than soft foams. P2 may not be first, but the strapping, knee cradle, weight, and speed skin make this appear to be a solid product. 

on a side note, Pat Lefebvre has a laugh over the guys who still have tons of leather straps on their pads. He likes the strapless designs. He just makes what his customer's want... 

[keeperton]

5 hours ago, Hills said:

I'd say the big jump in tech was on the Ritual G2s though. Warrior was the first with the hard knee wing and calf wing that stayed perpendicular with the pad. Now every company does that. That was a huge selling point for G2 pads and why I wanted a pair, correct me if I'm wrong with them introducing that.

I'm not entirely certain what you mean by this, but I feel like it was done before Warrior ever started making hockey equipment if I understand correctly.

[Hills]

Most pads before the G2s could be pushed outwards with force and were pushed outwards when a goalie dropped, they also folded inwards when looking at the pad from behind. When the G2 came out it was designed to stay flat so when you push down towards the ice you get all of the force and the pad doesn't move outwards first. It was something some goalies didn't like as it effectively made the pad thinner and pucks would slide under the pads a bit easier if they didn't quite get down in time.

Here you can see Kipper's pads pushing outwards.

Here you can see Karlsson's pads coming inwards at the knee

Here you can see Premier clones pushing outwards.

Here is Premier pulling inwards as well.

[keeperton]

Ah, I think I get what you mean (second picture is broken btw). I don't know that I can speak to that further. Most the examples coming to my mind probably push outward upon further inspection, but I don't have them on hand or personal experiences with the pads I would cite.

[ruckus007]

I've gotten a chance to take a look at the new line. I'm not overly impressed. Just glad they're catching up somewhat. The pads and gloves are a lot lighter, with the boot of the P2 much softer than before. The blocker finally has proper finger protection (similar to vaughn ones), and the ramp at the top of the board is quite huge. Glove feels the same. I'm more concerned about quality of materials as none of it seemed that much better than before, and it wasn't that great to begin with.

The chesy is very comfortable, with a new type of arm securing system (elastic inside the arms, like a sling). The arm protection is terrible, however. The floaters literally sit on your forearm, with nothing underneath. I had a buddy give it a quick jab and it bruised me right away. The shoulders and body blocks are soft, and bend quite easily. There's removable rib protection pillows (which funny enough attaches almost the same way I engineered one to be used on my old Premier Pro). Overall....I'm very mixed on the new line. The  C/A's a definite no from me, given the lack of protection. 

[TheGoalNet]

@Hills - Can you do me a favor? Can you try and bend your pads in a U Shape across the thigh rise? Move the outer roll toward the sliding surface as the top two points of the U. 

Someone a at shop told me that CCM and Bauer don't move. Brian's Optik moves a little, GNetik used to bend quite a bit. Warrior and Vaughn move a ton. He was trying to point out that some companies sacrifice core stability for weight. With current materials, weight savings = softer foams = more cross and torsional flex in the pads. 

[MTH]

On 2/2/2018 at 3:30 PM, TheGoalNet said:

CCM is becoming fascinating to me. They are #1 in the NHL with 50% market share and retail overall (not every store though or every location).  

CCM brand stronghold in the NHL was established when they used the RbK/Reebok name and bought into every league north of Mexico. Even still. CCM is the only company that most major juniors and minor leagues allow. Not to mention that they are all over the NHL. By the time any kids make it to the NHL, they've gotten there by using some type of CCM gear they had to use.

THG had a combined massive hold on the gear market before they consolidated back to one brand. Not to mention, how many brands pay to be in the NHL? Handful at best (CCM, Bauer, Warrior, STX, Brians and Vaughn). Add in that Bauer and CCM currently offer how many unique lines of gear? Three each I think.

CCM is number one now in a two car race. I mean, that's great, but it's an 'either or' market anymore.

[coopaloop1234]

24 minutes ago, MTH said:

 Add in that Bauer and CCM currently offer how many unique lines of gear? Three each I think.

Two?

- Premier/Eflex
- 2s/1x

[MTH]

Sorry was thinking skater lines. With my kids playing, I spend more on their non goalie gear now.

[TheGoalNet]

7 minutes ago, MTH said:

Sorry was thinking skater lines. With my kids playing, I spend more on their non goalie gear now.

MTH - CCM = 50% and Vaughn, Brian's, and Bauer = 50%. 

There are reasons besides pure performance why CCM is there for sure. However, people trust their gear. It's like a Titleist golf ball, you are never going wrong with it. When they add a new innovation, it means that it is proven. 

[coopaloop1234]

42 minutes ago, MTH said:

Sorry was thinking skater lines. With my kids playing, I spend more on their non goalie gear now.

That's some serious heretic speak right there.

[MTH]

19 hours ago, coopaloop1234 said:

That's some serious heretic speak right there.

Can't not speak the lingo the kids are all talking. Especially when you play. I find it funny that an 11 year old tells me in detail how he needs the most expensive stick in the shop all the time. Then gives me the sales pitch with all the flex point, weights, etc. that it comes with.

Get real. Get open, receive a pass and take shots on net before you tell me that the flex point on your CCM trigger is the issue why you only had one goal that game. ha ha

"If I had the 1X lite..."

Then my 8 year old starts with it.  

[bunnyman666]

17 minutes ago, MTH said:

Can't not speak the lingo the kids are all talking. Especially when you play. I find it funny that an 11 year old tells me in detail how he needs the most expensive stick in the shop all the time. Then gives me the sales pitch with all the flex point, weights, etc. that it comes with.

Get real. Get open, receive a pass and take shots on net before you tell me that the flex point on your CCM trigger is the issue why you only had one goal that game. ha ha

"If I had the 1X lite..."

Then my 8 year old starts with it.  

I remember making the same sorts of arguments for the Easton 6000 aluminium stick. No- they really weren’t selling flex points, but finally, my famous last words of (and the chief sales point) “and a replacement blade is only $5”. 

[Hills]

On 05/02/2018 at 8:21 AM, TheGoalNet said:

@Hills - Can you do me a favor? Can you try and bend your pads in a U Shape across the thigh rise? Move the outer roll toward the sliding surface as the top two points of the U. 

Someone a at shop told me that CCM and Bauer don't move. Brian's Optik moves a little, GNetik used to bend quite a bit. Warrior and Vaughn move a ton. He was trying to point out that some companies sacrifice core stability for weight. With current materials, weight savings = softer foams = more cross and torsional flex in the pads. 

They bend, but not a lot more than the 1X. I don't have a Lefebvre to compare.

I heard from CCM that the weight cutting in other brands caused the other pads to be less "premier" if you will and caused flex. But if you don't notice that difference when playing then I feel it is just an excuse.

[TheGoalNet]

5 minutes ago, Hills said:

They bend, but not a lot more than the 1X. I don't have a Lefebvre to compare.

I heard from CCM that the weight cutting in other brands caused the other pads to be less "premier" if you will and caused flex. But if you don't notice that difference when playing then I feel it is just an excuse.

Agreed. There’s a question if the flex in the direction you tested negatively effects performance 

from a durability standpoint, I like the concept of pads not moving in that direction 

that was one of my few GNetik complaints. Pads were too soft for me. Sorta formed into an unusual shape overtime. Was a learning experience and I realized I like a stiffer thigh rise