Let's Talk Skates

[Hills]

51 minutes ago, TheGoalNet said:

The AS1 is a 1 piece boot and it’s a more polished design. So any energy transfer tech from True is now in CCM. 

Bauer has a foot scanner at retail. It’s only logical they scale their custom program with that tech. Bauer has been building custom skates longer than True has been in the hockey market. It’s a market they neglected, but they are more than capable 

I think everyone is a bit naive if they don’t Bauer and/or CCM will compete in the custom product. CCM has attacked Bauer already talking about the fit of their player skates at retail. It’s a logical guess this narrative will continue to goal. 

From a neutral marketing standpoint, True can be the craftsmen brand or the made in Canada brand, but I think Bauer and CCM will beat with them with materials, technology, scanners, and lead times. 

The AS1 one piece boot is still attached to an outer cowling across the whole skate, which acts just as much as an outsole as an old school cowling. The fact that this is the first CCM goalie skate WITHOUT a plastic outsole is pretty telling. CCM goal skate isn't where the True or Bauer skate is yet. Not to mention if you play the whole "well True is attached to a plastic holder so it is the same thing" True offers the actual full carbon one piece goalie skate including the cowling. So no other brand can offer that right now in a goalie skate at the retail level.

Bauer currently does not have the custom program with the scanner, and it probably won't be available for the 2S skate either. So for the immediate future True is still ahead of both of them. Bauer's years of skate building means nothing in terms of offering a better product. Ford has sold more cars for longer than Tesla, but nothing in Ford's lineup can directly compete against a Tesla.

CCM and Bauer will beat True with retail sales as they sell skates off the shelf. But I have a feeling Bauer's composite won't pass the carbon fibre test while True will. At the moment the only thing Bauer has over True is LS5 steel, which can be compared with Step Black. CCM has absolutely nothing on them. Also, local orders take less time on a custom skate for True than Bauer. True is also better with dealing with issues than Bauer is.

[TheGoalNet]

@Hills - I am absolutely talking long term. I think a custom program for 2X or 3S is an obvious evolution of the foot scanner. I’m not talking for any 2018 releases... 2019 or 2020. But Bauer has done custom before and done it well. It’s just figuring out how to scale it and revive it. 

It’s also probably safe to assume that CCM is working on a holder and moving away from the cowling. A foot scanner is another thing that has to be coming to market to keep up with the competition. 

So I think True has another 2 years max and then Bauer and CCM will have everything True has and the resources to do it better. 

Again, I’m not saying True is going under, but I just can’t see them ever being bigger than Graf. 

As for AS1, the cowling is very minimal at the bottom where it’s attached to the skate. Yes, it’s more material than a pure holder, but won’t be as clunky an VH / Vertexx Cowling combo 

[IPv6Freely]

I wouldn't touch a CCM goal skate with a 10' pole. 

[Hills]

You can't say a giant plastic piece under the skate isn't clunky compared to a True and Edge or step. 

Bauer never stopped making custom skates, it's always been there.

True just got a new patent for skates, so clearly they have something up their sleeve. Not to mention True itself is a leader in composites are they not? Everything on the True skate right now is VH, it is safe to say True could pull some of their tech from their composite shafts.

[bunnyman666]

The only way the True skate could be improved is a custom moulded foot bed. And yes- True literally has their thumb print on everything from golf, bicycles and tools, so their own tech could end up in subsequent releases. People forget that many companies have used relabelled True sticks for a long time. 

I don’t think True is going to be marginalised by Bauer or CCM.

[TheGoalNet]

10 hours ago, Hills said:

You can't say a giant plastic piece under the skate isn't clunky compared to a True and Edge or step. 

Bauer never stopped making custom skates, it's always been there.

True just got a new patent for skates, so clearly they have something up their sleeve. Not to mention True itself is a leader in composites are they not? Everything on the True skate right now is VH, it is safe to say True could pull some of their tech from their composite shafts.

I didn’t compare it to an Edge or Step holder. I said it’s not clunky compared to a VH + Vertexx cowling, like is still popular in the NHL 

I didn’t think Bauer custom went away, but your initial post confused me so I thought something changed. Bauer does custom very well. They just don’t promote it and I don’t think it’s scaled to where they want to do it a lot. I think that’s changing and the foot scanner is the baby step in that direction 

[SaveByRichter35]

Ok this is coming from someone who is as unbiased as can be as I don't wear any of these types of skates.  I think you guys need to all chill the fuck out.  Lets be real here.  There is a very minimal difference in the connection to the skate between the Step holder:

The Bauer holder:

And the CCM "cowling"

They're all connected via rivets through very thin plastic,  directly to the boot, around the exterior of the toes and heels with the CCM having 2 extra down the middle.  And lets be honest, they probably could have designed that "cowling" without the strip down the middle and it would be the same thing. 

OMG this holder is so much more advanced than this holder or that cowling blah blah blah.  Stop making a big deal out of nothing.  You all sound stupid.

[coopaloop1234]

^ Love it.

[IPv6Freely]

Well again if people would stop trying to suggest that True is somehow not as good we wouldn’t have to keep going in circles.

[bunnyman666]

@SaveByRichter35 mine are connected by screws and T-nuts.

[TheGoalNet]

3 hours ago, bunnyman666 said:

The only way the True skate could be improved is a custom moulded foot bed. And yes- True literally has their thumb print on everything from golf, bicycles and tools, so their own tech could end up in subsequent releases. People forget that many companies have used relabelled True sticks for a long time. 

I don’t think True is going to be marginalised by Bauer or CCM.

True skates are heavier than competitors, they lack in fit and finish, they have long lead times, and they can’t do custom toe caps or insoles (that technology exists). True is a custom skate, it’s not bespoke. 

They take a bunch of different size components they have already developed and assemble them together to best fit your foot shape. Sort of like an erector set or Brian’s building a custom pad.

I don’t think True is sleeping 12hrs a day in R&D because they created the perfect skate. 

I feel like people might think I don’t like True and it couldn’t be further from True. What VH has done in a short period of time is unbelievable and they’ve made a lot of people way more comfortable playing hockey. 

They’ve also pioneered a new business model of not making dealers inventory high end product. 

I’m just saying, True could be like a palm phone or blackberry. Pioneered a new concept with a phone / computer hybrid. Gave the cell phone companies a new revenue stream in data plans. Showed the bigger companies what was possible and then Samsung, Google, and Apple are their lunch 

You don’t have to agree and I love all the opinions, but I think there is a True skate bubble. It will burst whenever Bauer and CCM roll out a mass custom program. True will end up as the new Graf. A loyal following, but not a real dent on Bauer or CCM

[bunnyman666]

21 minutes ago, TheGoalNet said:

True skates are heavier than competitors, they lack in fit and finish, they have long lead times, and they can’t do custom toe caps or insoles (that technology exists). True is a custom skate, it’s not bespoke. 

They take a bunch of different size components they have already developed and assemble them together to best fit your foot shape. Sort of like an erector set or Brian’s building a custom pad.

I don’t think True is sleeping 12hrs a day in R&D because they created the perfect skate. 

I feel like people might think I don’t like True and it couldn’t be further from True. What VH has done in a short period of time is unbelievable and they’ve made a lot of people way more comfortable playing hockey. 

They’ve also pioneered a new business model of not making dealers inventory high end product. 

I’m just saying, True could be like a palm phone or blackberry. Pioneered a new concept with a phone / computer hybrid. Gave the cell phone companies a new revenue stream in data plans. Showed the bigger companies what was possible and then Samsung, Google, and Apple are their lunch 

You don’t have to agree and I love all the opinions, but I think there is a True skate bubble. It will burst whenever Bauer and CCM roll out a mass custom program. True will end up as the new Graf. A loyal following, but not a real dent on Bauer or CCM

You could be right, but True has been around in sports for a minute. I liken them to Easton when they were emerging.

[IPv6Freely]

1 hour ago, TheGoalNet said:

True skates are heavier than competitors, they lack in fit and finish, they have long lead times, and they can’t do custom toe caps or insoles (that technology exists). True is a custom skate, it’s not bespoke. 

They take a bunch of different size components they have already developed and assemble them together to best fit your foot shape. Sort of like an erector set or Brian’s building a custom pad.

Nonsense. 

[Hills]

So do you think Bauer and CCM also don't build a custom skate based on parts they already have to fit the measurements you send in? Both of them aren't going to build a custom insole or toe box for you, you can get a bigger to box from a larger size skate and that is it.

Both of those companies also have widely available custom skate options. Every store that carries them can place a custom order for a skate. Most places rarely do since the custom skates costs more and there are wait times. Currently Bauer custom skate wait times are longer than Trues are.

I think True has a lot of things to improve on, but there is a reason I wear their goalie skate.

[insertnamehere]

I tried on a pair of Bauer S170s today, I liked them. I'll probably end up getting some S190s if I can find a used pair in the right size. 

[TheGoalNet]

1 hour ago, IPv6Freely said:

Nonsense. 

How?

I have been to the VH Factory and seen the production. I have held the skates and I have seen Bauer and CCM up close? What exactly is wrong there with my opinion. 

I think the plastics used, the the trim pieces uses, etc all look more like more polished on Bauer or CCM. 

From memory: VH uses a foot scan and finds a foot last most closely associated with your foot. They then identify hot spots and add them to last. They build their skate from there. They have existing dies and tooling to cut the pieces required to complete the skate from there. They use multiple sizes of "stock" pieces to form a custom skate.

Bespoke would require creating completely new dies and tooling for each skate. 

Again, exactly the same process used to make custom goalie pads. There is nothing wrong with it, but it is nothing that cannot be copied or done better with the further increased used of digital technologies and manufacturing methods. 

[bunnyman666]

5 minutes ago, TheGoalNet said:

How?

I have been to the VH Factory and seen the production. I have held the skates and I have seen Bauer and CCM up close? What exactly is wrong there? 

I will say that what VH are doing in not that incredibly difficult to build for an advanced composites shoppe. A brand of cycling shoes that I can’t think of their name built cycling shoes very similarly, except that their construction is a bit more involved, including using a FULL mould of your foot. They also built the shoe around a moulded footbed. The owner (can’t remember his name) called them an orthotic that wrapped your foot and had a cycling cleat attached. 

That would be the evolution.

[TheGoalNet]

1 hour ago, Hills said:

So do you think Bauer and CCM also don't build a custom skate based on parts they already have to fit the measurements you send in? Both of them aren't going to build a custom insole or toe box for you, you can get a bigger to box from a larger size skate and that is it.

Both of those companies also have widely available custom skate options. Every store that carries them can place a custom order for a skate. Most places rarely do since the custom skates costs more and there are wait times. Currently Bauer custom skate wait times are longer than Trues are.

I think True has a lot of things to improve on, but there is a reason I wear their goalie skate.

I feel like people who use True are being brand loyal here and I love the passion, but I feel like my posts are not being full read or being interpreted as negative to True. I am approaching this from a neutral point of view, as if I were a CNBC analyst for the hockey industry. 

True has made custom fit skates based on a foot scan an industry trend. Bauer and CCM have or will role out foot scanners. Once they have that technology proven out, they will promote, ramp up, and scale their custom skate program. It's only logical from a business standpoint. It's my opinion that once that happens, True's growth could plateau or decline. 

How is everyone arguing that standpoint? Do you really think Bauer investing in designing a foot scanner to stop at skate recommendations? 

I am not saying there is anything wrong with True!!! I am saying there is nothing they are doing that cannot be copied by people with a stronger pedigree in the skate industry. 

Bunnyman's comments were saying True had a virtually perfect skate. I was outlining areas I think True could improve their skate. I was not implying Bauer or CCM are currently doing it. I am saying the next generation True skate would be better if they improved the fit and finish, they made it lighter, and expanded their custom options to include toe caps and player specific insoles. 

Would anyone who owns True skates being made if they bough a new model in 2 years that was lighter, had nicer fit and finish, or offered different toe cap sizes? ABSOLUTELY NOT. That is my opinion on how True could improve their product. 

IMO, Bauer and CCM put NO energy into promoting their custom skate program. I have never had a rep in a store ask me about doing a custom Bauer. I only know it exists because of @TGC-Rance and GSBB. True made it a hot marketing topic and others will follow. 

Maybe I will phrase this another way? True has a head start in the fully scaled "foot scan custom skate market". I think it is only 2-3 years until Bauer or CCM catches or passes them. 

[TheGoalNet]

9 minutes ago, bunnyman666 said:

I will say that what VH are doing in not that incredibly difficult to build for an advanced composites shoppe. A brand of cycling shoes that I can’t think of their name built cycling shoes very similarly, except that their construction is a bit more involved, including using a FULL mould of your foot. They also built the shoe around a moulded footbed. The owner (can’t remember his name) called them an orthotic that wrapped your foot and had a cycling cleat attached. 

That would be the evolution.

Thank you @bunnyman666 - I think you finally understanding my point! 

VH / True makes a killer skate. It's no accident so many pros switched. Now that they have switched, True has a target on their back. Bauer and CCM will copy it and add their own flare to it. Given the obsession both of these companies have with the skate market, I will shocked if Bauer and CCM don't pass them in this market in 3-5 years. 

There is also a retail element to what True does in that it elements inventory of the store's most expensive product. That is attractive to retailers, CCM, and Bauer. 

I understand people disputing my opinion they will get passed. I don't understand how people are disputing that Bauer and CCM are coming with their own foot scanners or that VH's process could replicated or improved upon. 

@bunnyman666 - Thanks for the cycling example!!! 

[bunnyman666]

1 hour ago, TheGoalNet said:

Thank you @bunnyman666 - I think you finally understanding my point! 

VH / True makes a killer skate. It's no accident so many pros switched. Now that they have switched, True has a target on their back. Bauer and CCM will copy it and add their own flare to it. Given the obsession both of these companies have with the skate market, I will shocked if Bauer and CCM don't pass them in this market in 3-5 years. 

There is also a retail element to what True does in that it elements inventory of the store's most expensive product. That is attractive to retailers, CCM, and Bauer. 

I understand people disputing my opinion they will get passed. I don't understand how people are disputing that Bauer and CCM are coming with their own foot scanners or that VH's process could replicated or improved upon. 

@bunnyman666 - Thanks for the cycling example!!! 

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~sandiway/bike/lust/index.html

The biggest difference is that the cycling shoe does not protect the foot. This is where you have the wiggle room that a thermo-form interior can give opposed to a 100% firm to your foot. 

Again- if the orthotic angle could be pursued and integrated into the skate, THAT would make whatever composite boot into a world beater!

[TheGoalNet]

Curv / Alive are actually about 10 years old now? I wonder when Bauer is going to develop / utilize a new material 

[Hills]

2 hours ago, TheGoalNet said:

Curv / Alive are actually about 10 years old now? I wonder when Bauer is going to develop / utilize a new material 

Do you have some inside knowledge there? As Bauer never developed Curv, they licenced the material for hockey usage.

[Doobiesnax]

Can we rename this thread to "Lets all get super defensive about skates"?  

[bunnyman666]

22 minutes ago, Hills said:

Do you have some inside knowledge there? As Bauer never developed Curv, they licenced the material for hockey usage.

Yeah- that is a pre-preg product made for sporting goods.

[TheGoalNet]

32 minutes ago, Hills said:

Do you have some inside knowledge there? As Bauer never developed Curv, they licenced the material for hockey usage.

Hills - I love the dialog today, but I think you might be diving a bit deep into my word choice, haha. I love how precisely you read my posts!!! 

When I say develop, "applied to hockey" or "developed a skate around Curv" might be better statements. They started using Curv and/or Alive 10ish years ago. . . It would almost feel like it's time for something new? Do they own any untapped patents from Easton Synergy skates or MLX / Mako that could be utilized to take Curv to the next level . . .