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Why so many concussions from shots lately?


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The best way concussions were explained to me by a neurosurgeon was that you can take an egg and shake it so that the insides actually scramble without the shell ever being compromised, that's essentially a concussion.  The brain distorts due to the rapid start and stop movement within the fluid.  Now some eggs will scramble easier or faster than others, there's no telling.  Which is why some people can be concussed easier than others and have longer lasting symptoms.  But the point is, protecting the shell from impact is not the most significant factor in whether or not a concussion will be sustained, the movement is much more significant.  All recent research into concussion prevention has focused on the shell design and internal padding to try and reduce the force, but if the head can still move, the concussion can still occur.  

Additionally, more emphasis is being placed on rotational force which will stem more from a side impact or twisting of the head as this motion can do more damage than just a front to back motion.

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6 hours ago, TheGoalNet said:

@BadAngle41 - Your point about crumple zones is exactly my thought about about the rubberized coating. Maybe the shells are too stiff now and need to give just a little to absorb the impact better 

I've been saying this for years. But the mask industry is humping composites like a jackrabbit on viagra. They are just focused on puck shots, but ignore all other types of impacts. I've been using ABS ReidiC masks for 15 years, and love it because of the flex. It's stiff enough in the front to take hard shots head-on, but the sides flex enough, so that when you smash your head on the ice or a post you don't get so "jarred" as if you had a stiff composite mask. Players aren't wearing carbon fibre masks, are they? No, because when your head smashes into the boards, you want some flex there. Same with NFL players. But goalies? NO FLEX! CARBON FIBRE, BABY! Seriously, WTF? I mean, granted, no mask will protect 100% from injury, and like chakal pointed out, sometimes the material doesn't even matter. But I would really like to see the goalie mask industry get off it's carbon fiber addiction and look into ABS more, because goalies are not only taking puck shots to the head, but smashing them on the ice and posts too. And with beer league, probably even more so.

Edited by estogoalie
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4 hours ago, chakal said:

A doctor from Montreal University, a leader in concussion researches, was on radio this morning. Saying that Price's concussion wasn't directly from the shot itself but from the result of the shot. He said that the concussion came from the whiplash move the head does when hit. I mean, the mask did it's job by protecting Price, but the impact pushed Price's head at a certain speed causing the brain to move even faster inside the skull and hit the skull causing the concussion. The kind of concussion you get in a car crash. Your head is protected by the air bag, no direct hit to the head, but your head movement makes you brain move too and that cause the concussion.

If the masks weren't safe, those goalies would have had a skull fracture I think. Same thing with Montoya earlier this season. He got hit on the chin. It caused a backlash to his head.

Price was hit on the side of his head if I remember, probably on the ear.

i've been hit in the ear, but didn't jerk my head. It was just instant concussion. =(

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6 hours ago, Chenner29 said:

As others have touched on, we are seeing more concussions because doctors are getting better at diagnosing them, and the hockey culture has changed to be very cautious with head injuries.  The average shot velocity has also crept up over the years.  Instead of one or two guys per team being able to uncork a clapper, you've probably got 5-10.  Goalies have gotten better, but the risk of injury is higher.

There are factors on the protection end of it, of course.  Fit, shell composition and integrity, and padding condition all come into play.

Under fit, I'm talking about how well the mask (and the padding inside) conforms to the player's head.  If it's done well, you have minimal to zero void spots and the head is nicely encased and padded where it needs to be.

For shell composition, I'm in the camp that shells should be as stiff as possible to deflect impact.  A shell that flexes or absorbs the shot will have the added risk of transferring that energy to the skull. That being said, I am not opposed to using material with vibration dampening properties between the shell and the mask padding as I think that could be helpful.

Finally padding condition - some padding out there absorbs sweat.  Rubatex is notorious for this.  As it does, the salt from sweat seeps into the foam and over time causes it to harden. Think of the palms in your crusty old gloves and you get the idea.  These guys are on the ice almost every day, and most possess insane work ethic; the padding is gonna degrade pretty quickly. 

Quickly touching on some padding technology that was brought up earlier -
Bauer is using Poron in select areas of their masks - this stuff is inconsistent as it tends to harden when it's cold, and become mushy soft when it's warm. 
D30 is a technology that has spread out into other sports for impact protection, and it's touted for its ability to instantly harden on impact.  In my opinion, this is great for areas that require flexibility and protection (elbows, back, hands, etc).  In contrast, the head is relatively static, and having a material that stiffens when struck seems counterproductive for headwear.

I use a Mage TT that was originally lined with Rubatex, which aged and hardened. Now with Maltese in it. I firmly believe in Chenner's assumption on padding quality as the shots I used to feel or sting me barely even registers now with the softer maltese in it. 

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I would like to voice my opinion - I do not believe carbon fiber should be used for masks! as Estonia put it to stiff, my sons mask is made out of Kevlar which is more suited for impacts, think of how FI cars are developed theses days they absorb the impact by crumbling before the impact hits the TUB which is the closest region to the driver.

As far as Price is concerned turning his head to the side was not the proper reaction,  very little protection I have always told my son never to do this. The padding on his mask is razor thin like Price , I tell him to take it in the cage or top section if possible and until last year it would cost me 3 - 4 cages a year heknow gloves them.

Finally I think that all of this is dependant to each person, some people might be more prone to concussions under the same circumstances than others? 

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6 minutes ago, Big2 said:

I would like to voice my opinion - I do not believe carbon fiber should be used for masks! as Estonia put it to stiff, my sons mask is made out of Kevlar which is more suited for impacts, think of how FI cars are developed theses days they absorb the impact by crumbling before the impact hits the TUB which is the closest region to the driver.

As far as Price is concerned turning his head to the side was not the proper reaction,  very little protection I have always told my son never to do this. The padding on his mask is razor thin like Price , I tell him to take it in the cage or top section if possible and until last year it would cost me 3 - 4 cages a year heknow gloves them.

Finally I think that all of this is dependant to each person, some people might be more prone to concussions under the same circumstances than others? 

The reason why kevlar is not used in the construction of a bicycle is that it is not stiff enough; neither is fibreglass! Carbon fibre IS stiff enough to be used in bike frames, F1 tubs, etc. This is why carbon should be used sparingly in a masque; definitely not in the outer layers. Michel says no carbon and I respect that.  I would use a little, but not much. That will be subject to testing. But a little stiff would be fine in the right places. I will probably test various layups and maybe use no carbon fibre. 

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has anyone thought of or tried an impact absorbing chin cup strap? like the strap that loops through the chin cup could be a rubber elastic type material (but stronger so it doesn't stretch that easily) this could allow the chin cup/stram to take not only some impact strain on to the chin but also some side to side impacts as well...It would also be a good idea for mask makers to look into incorporating the MIPS system that is used in cycling and motocross helmets to absorb some of the rotational impacts in crashes or in this case pucks of players hitting your head at an angle and not straight on. I highly recommend watching a video on how the MIPS system works... this may be it, because most mask shots aren't strait on...

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On 2/23/2018 at 3:33 PM, estogoalie said:

I've been saying this for years. But the mask industry is humping composites like a jackrabbit on viagra. They are just focused on puck shots, but ignore all other types of impacts. I've been using ABS ReidiC masks for 15 years, and love it because of the flex. It's stiff enough in the front to take hard shots head-on, but the sides flex enough, so that when you smash your head on the ice or a post you don't get so "jarred" as if you had a stiff composite mask. Players aren't wearing carbon fibre masks, are they? No, because when your head smashes into the boards, you want some flex there. Same with NFL players. But goalies? NO FLEX! CARBON FIBRE, BABY! Seriously, WTF? I mean, granted, no mask will protect 100% from injury, and like chakal pointed out, sometimes the material doesn't even matter. But I would really like to see the goalie mask industry get off it's carbon fiber addiction and look into ABS more, because goalies are not only taking puck shots to the head, but smashing them on the ice and posts too. And with beer league, probably even more so.

@estogoalie... between you in your ReidiC and me in my Wall W6... I think we're about the only two wearing polycarbonates and we love  them for the reasons you gave. It has some give to absorb impact while having enough stiffness to dissipate the rest.

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19 minutes ago, BadAngle41 said:

@estogoalie... between you in your ReidiC and me in my Wall W6... I think we're about the only two wearing polycarbonates and we love  them for the reasons you gave. It has some give to absorb impact while having enough stiffness to dissipate the rest.

I am certain those two shells are poly done right- NOTHING like Itech widowmakers from back in the day! I was not in goal when they were around, but was told by anyone and everyone in the know to avoid those shells at ALL costs! I saw one and understand the admonishment...

Let’s face it- the ol’ SK2000 was the default masque. You could not get a Harrison until Juniors or higher. If the plastic SK2000 were THAT bad, they would have been BANNED long ago.

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33 minutes ago, Znowleopard said:

atta.png.74a9f3377eb1e9895256be97322e24d6.png

here is a shitty diagram i threw together, using the same  pillar design that the VICIS helmet, this would not only reduce direct forces from a shot by the pillars buckling, but any glancing hits the pillars would allow the shell to move slightly while keeping the head stationary(ish),

Yes, essentially a sandwich. Some sort of inner and outer shell. Maybe a better execution of my rubber paint comment :rofl:

I actually asked a helmet company how a Sr level plastic helmet gets HECC or CSA certified. They asked why I said that and I replied because Fiberglass or Carbon Fiber is a better material and even C league men's has guys that can let them go. They basically told me that was a dangerous assumption. 

I actually have the resources and access to equipment to test something like that... Maybe this summer I can dive in. 

Lastly... 

Virginia Tech V Star testing is coming to goalie helmets. This is a going to be a giant cluster fuck. I would not expect many new helmet models until the industry recovers from this disaster. 

Lots more of this to come:

http://www.usahockey.com/news_article/show/498353?referrer_id=752796

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What happened to the”Onezie” guy from GSBB? I seem to remember he had some type of suspended internal backplate. The rounded shape seemed like a logical approach to deflecting the shots as well. Maybe he was onto something,just needed a different name.

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11 hours ago, TheGoalNet said:

I actually asked a helmet company how a Sr level plastic helmet gets HECC or CSA certified. They asked why I said that and I replied because Fiberglass or Carbon Fiber is a better material and even C league men's has guys that can let them go. They basically told me that was a dangerous assumption. 

I actually have the resources and access to equipment to test something like that... Maybe this summer I can dive in.

"Better material"...in what sense?  In terms of stiffness and weight, yes, it is a little lighter and definitely stiffer than ABS. But for durability and flexibility, no. But is it better material for a mask is a different question anyway.

Have you seen the Wall W6 bullet test? How would a carbon fiber mask fare?

Tukka in a Wall W4 ABS mask in the Finnish league, Johan Hedberg in the NHL in an ABS Reidic mask. Actually, in the early 2000's half the SEL in Sweden was wearing Reidic. Then the "carbon craze" came along, and suddenly everyone believes carbon is better, but doesn't know why. My guess is there is more money to be made on carbon fibre. ABS masks go for around $500 max, carbon masks can go for over $1000. Which would you want to sell?The foam and fit is probably even more important than the material, but rarely hear sales pitches about that. Usually it's about how many layers of what type of fiber. Why is that?

wall-tukka.thumb.jpg.41ad88c166a34579cb56e16edf82ba33.jpghedberg.jpg.31a55214836910e1080f673b8fcff8af.jpg

Edited by estogoalie
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@estogoalie - This is actually a fascinating topic too. A Wall mask is heavy by today's standards and comparing that with the lightweight plastics made by North American companies it's easy to see why people here are skeptical. Our plastic masks are flimsy and low cost. Your plastic masks are thick and feel sturdy. 

The same way printing graphics had a bad rep for a long time, I wonder if plastic masks are next? I absolutely agree that someone could come up with a material that might be polymer based that would be better engineered to take a shot. I think the North American market's aversion to this will deincentivize companies to do this... at least for a long time or until the next OD1N project happens... 

Think about it from a goalie pad point of view.

Every company is chasing large rebounds right now. How are they achieving this? By putting harder and harder materials in into the pad face. This forces the puck to compress at impact and shoot off in the other direction. Similarly to a golf ball off a driver face. 

This could also be accomplished by a soft squishy material. Imagine if a puck was shot into a trampoline. The trampoline would absorb and redirect the puck's energy with a huge rebound. The puck would never compress. 

I am NOT saying composite or fiberglass masks are bad, I am not well educated enough on the topic. However, I can respect the viewpoint that compressing a puck of your head makes 0 sense. A hard mask is the same thing that goalie pad companies are trying to accomplish 

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@cwarnar thanks for digging those pics up. I don’t think he is far off,design and fit and finish look great. I realize it “looks” different and a lot  of people won’t like that it isn’t traditional. Truth is for some of us older goalies the current mask design was a huge departure from what we were used to. I’ll assume a very large percentage of guys and gals here only ever had a traditional mask so it’s what they know and like. But maybe it is time for something to come along that’s an improvement on safety over current trends,whether it is ABS or an entirely different direction like the OneZee. You can color me crazy cuz I like what the OneZee “theory” represents. No one rides a motorcycle or races a car or ski/snowboards wearing something that basically covers their face. And I know objects aren’t flying at your head doing those things but for head protection I believe we would all choose a rounder,more form fitting shape. Seems like the discussion has started in the industry anyway and it’ll be fun to see where we end up. No doubt there’s folks a lot smarter than myself working real hard to find a solution. 

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43 minutes ago, DALV1 said:

@cwarnar thanks for digging those pics up. I don’t think he is far off,design and fit and finish look great. I realize it “looks” different and a lot  of people won’t like that it isn’t traditional. Truth is for some of us older goalies the current mask design was a huge departure from what we were used to. I’ll assume a very large percentage of guys and gals here only ever had a traditional mask so it’s what they know and like. But maybe it is time for something to come along that’s an improvement on safety over current trends,whether it is ABS or an entirely different direction like the OneZee. You can color me crazy cuz I like what the OneZee “theory” represents. No one rides a motorcycle or races a car or ski/snowboards wearing something that basically covers their face. And I know objects aren’t flying at your head doing those things but for head protection I believe we would all choose a rounder,more form fitting shape. Seems like the discussion has started in the industry anyway and it’ll be fun to see where we end up. No doubt there’s folks a lot smarter than myself working real hard to find a solution. 

I would be stuck on the design and hope someone could accomplish the goal with a less dramatic aesthetic approach... But if this works and he can clinically validate it's safer, I am all for it. 

On a serious level, what type of R&D and research does the OneZee have behind it? A hobbiest looked at other sports and tried to figure out how to integrate their principals to hockey. . .

It's a very nice story, but is actually safer? Has this been tested by any 3rd parties or in a lab? Does the impact issues from a motorcycle crash apply to goalie? These are the hard questions any new helmet company should be able to answer. 

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