Why so many concussions from shots lately?

[Znowleopard]

wow now that's an idea i could get behind, combined a onezee shell with the VICIS impact absorption and that might  make for a pretty legit mask, of course i would want it to be lab tested before i would wear one

[bunnyman666]

19 minutes ago, TheGoalNet said:

I would be stuck on the design and hope someone could accomplish the goal with a less dramatic aesthetic approach... But if this works and he can clinically validate it's safer, I am all for it. 

On a serious level, what type of R&D and research does the OneZee have behind it? A hobbiest looked at other sports and tried to figure out how to integrate their principals to hockey. . .

It's a very nice story, but is actually safer? Has this been tested by any 3rd parties or in a lab? Does the impact issues from a motorcycle crash apply to goalie? These are the hard questions any new helmet company should be able to answer. 

The biggest thing stopping me from building a helmet right now (besides time) is the testing protocols. I have a good engineering school near me, and I have a relationship with a professor still. I would need to build five samples at least. And though this would end up as a project, it still costs money. But if I were serious, I would do the battery of tests even if it were just me wearing it. It would cost me about three to five Pro’s Choice top end masks to get a wearable example.

[Znowleopard]

1 minute ago, bunnyman666 said:

The biggest thing stopping me from building a helmet right now (besides time) is the testing protocols. I have a good engineering school near me, and I have a relationship with a professor still. I would need to build five samples at least. And though this would end up as a project, it still costs money. But if I were serious, I would do the battery of tests even if it were just me wearing it. It would cost me about three to five Pro’s Choice top end masks to get a wearable example.

Buuuuut you could become hockey world famous for creating the next generation mask

[DALV1]

@TheGoalNetExcellent points! And precisely why I leave it to those with the educational and practical experience in these types of developments . I don’t know the OneZee gentleman’s background or if he has tested anything beyond his own reasoning or playing time. The theory seems sound but you’re 100% correct,testing and examples of the type of impacts subjected to are key.

@bunnyman666this may be a good “ Gofundme” project.....you know like I give you $20 and you send me a free mask once it’s developed?

[cwarnar]

1 hour ago, TheGoalNet said:

I would be stuck on the design and hope someone could accomplish the goal with a less dramatic aesthetic approach... But if this works and he can clinically validate it's safer, I am all for it. 

On a serious level, what type of R&D and research does the OneZee have behind it? A hobbiest looked at other sports and tried to figure out how to integrate their principals to hockey. . .

It's a very nice story, but is actually safer? Has this been tested by any 3rd parties or in a lab? Does the impact issues from a motorcycle crash apply to goalie? These are the hard questions any new helmet company should be able to answer. 

That I can’t answer... although one guy was posting some stuff about the Onezee getting impact testing done to it:

this was with a 5.2 swinging rubber mallet apparatus.  

[TheGoalNet]

@cwarnar  I have no context or understanding of that chart shows? However! That is awesome to see that it looks like they are trying to do this right way! 

[parebele]

I think the future of masks lies in the overall shape and the padding material; not so much with what the outer shell material is made of. I think a lot of concussions result from being hit in the cage or forehead area, which is the flattest part of the mask. If there was a way to round that area to minimize direct impacts, then concussions would be decreased.

I think thicker padding would help %100. The foam liner of a motorcycle helmet is at least 1 inch thick, not including the soft liner that contacts your head. A thinner version of that couldn't be used because those are one-and-done. Meaning that if your helmet takes an impact it's garbage because the foam liner has compressed and won't spring back. Not ideal for goalies right now. But Bauer's mechanical liner would offer that possibility of switching out liners in a few minutes. If the cost could be kept reasonably low.

I love the Onezee, but don't really see a point of the back part. Maybe I've just been lucky but I've never/nor have I seen any goalie take a blow to the back of the head. As a painter though, I'd love to get my hands on one.

[Znowleopard]

2 minutes ago, parebele said:

I think the future of masks lies in the overall shape and the padding material; not so much with what the outer shell material is made of. I think a lot of concussions result from being hit in the cage or forehead area, which is the flattest part of the mask. If there was a way to round that area to minimize direct impacts, then concussions would be decreased.

I think thicker padding would help %100. The foam liner of a motorcycle helmet is at least 1 inch thick, not including the soft liner that contacts your head. A thinner version of that couldn't be used because those are one-and-done. Meaning that if your helmet takes an impact it's garbage because the foam liner has compressed and won't spring back. Not ideal for goalies right now. But Bauer's mechanical liner would offer that possibility of switching out liners in a few minutes. If the cost could be kept reasonably low.

I love the Onezee, but don't really see a point of the back part. Maybe I've just been lucky but I've never/nor have I seen any goalie take a blow to the back of the head. As a painter though, I'd love to get my hands on one.

I think the point of it was to give the mask more actually surface area which would mean that there is more area to spread the force out

[estogoalie]

6 hours ago, TheGoalNet said:

@estogoalie -

Every company is chasing large rebounds right now. How are they achieving this? By putting harder and harder materials in into the pad face. This forces the puck to compress at impact and shoot off in the other direction. Similarly to a golf ball off a driver face. 

This could also be accomplished by a soft squishy material. Imagine if a puck was shot into a trampoline. The trampoline would absorb and redirect the puck's energy with a huge rebound. The puck would never compress. 

I am NOT saying composite or fiberglass masks are bad, I am not well educated enough on the topic. However, I can respect the viewpoint that compressing a puck of your head makes 0 sense. A hard mask is the same thing that goalie pad companies are trying to accomplish 

I agree with you, for taking puck shots, carbon fibre is great, stiff, and lightweight. If you put me in front of a puck machine and were going to fire shots at my head at 100MMPH, I'd put aside my ReidiC and say give me a carbon fibre Wall W10 mask. However, if you then said in between puck shots you are going to smash my head on the ice and/or kick it with a skate, then I would say give me my ReidiC back, because I'd want the same kind of flex that player helmets have. (And the ReidiC is very stiff in front for puck shots, the flex is more on the sides of the mask.)

[TheGoalNet]

@parebele - baseball has a shock absorbing cage 

[Scott]

2 hours ago, TheGoalNet said:

@parebele - baseball has a shock absorbing cage 

Aren’t the Bauer concept masks supposed to have this to some effect?

[keeperton]

5 hours ago, TheGoalNet said:

@cwarnar  I have no context or understanding of that chart shows? However! That is awesome to see that it looks like they are trying to do this right way! 

You're seeing pounds of force against time. I'd guess he's doing raw force tests at instances to see how it holds up or dissipates? It'd need more context, as you said, for sure.

[TheGoalNet]

40 minutes ago, keeperton said:

You're seeing pounds of force against time. I'd guess he's doing raw force tests at instances to see how it holds up or dissipates? It'd need more context, as you said, for sure.

I’d love to know if he’s happy with that result and how it compares to well known mask, like a 960

i’d also like an engineer to tell us if those test makes sense as it related to head shots 

the general consensus is that VT ratings will not mimic a shot impact at all 

[keeperton]

9 minutes ago, TheGoalNet said:

I’d love to know if he’s happy with that result and how it compares to well known mask, like a 960

i’d also like an engineer to tell us if those test makes sense as it related to head shots 

the general consensus is that VT ratings will not mimic a shot impact at all 

I totally agree, especially with respect to what's come up in the thread regarding forced head movement from impacts.

[jayluv54]

Mike and I exchanged emails last year regarding his ONEZEE mask/helmet creation.  As a motocross rider, I am of the understanding that rounder is better for dissipating impacts, however, that's coming from a head hitting object perspective, not an object hitting head perspective, so naturally I was intrigued by his design.  Apparently Bauer showed some interest as well and requested a prototype.  Ultimately they dismissed the design as heavy, ugly and unlikely to be more protective.  According to Mike, this was right after they learned he had filed patents on it.

What we need to understand about today's modern goalie masks is that they are not designed to prevent brain injury (concussion), they are designed to protect the skull.  These are two different areas of protection, that are only now being treated differently in the world of head protection.  Back to motocross helmets.  They are still being made with the same fiberglass, composite shells to protect the skull, along with dual or triple density foam liners just like goalie masks.  But now they have slip zones and other features that allow the helmet to dissipate energy separately between the shell and an inner liner upon impact.  It's essentially an omni-directional suspension system between the liner and shell.  This is supposed to be strictly for protecting the brain from injury as it slows the rotational forces applied to the head.  Easton started doing something like this in it's player helmets with the Gyro fit system years ago and Bauer has it now as well in their ReAkt helmet suspend-tech liner.  All of these liners are designed to do one thing and that's to slow down the acceleration and deceleration of the brain by allowing the helmet to slightly move independently over the liner upon impact, reducing how much of that force is applied directly to the head. 

All we have in modern goalie masks is essentially a protective shell with shock absorption.  Nothing in recent concussion research states that any of that is effective in preventing concussions because ultimately, that's not what anyone had in mind when they designed them.

[IPv6Freely]

Worth pointing out that masks are made to prevent fracture, not concussion. Also worth pointing out that very few goalie concussions occur from a shot.

And then there's this:

[bunnyman666]

53 minutes ago, IPv6Freely said:

Worth pointing out that masks are made to prevent fracture, not concussion. Also worth pointing out that very few goalie concussions occur from a shot.

And then there's this:

Amen!

[coopaloop1234]

20 hours ago, Scott said:

Aren’t the Bauer concept masks supposed to have this to some effect?

Not sure if the C1 had them but my C2 definitely does.

The "Sawzall" effect. It's minor, but it's definitely there.

[TheGoalNet]

2 hours ago, jayluv54 said:

Mike and I exchanged emails last year regarding his ONEZEE mask/helmet creation.  As a motocross rider, I am of the understanding that rounder is better for dissipating impacts, however, that's coming from a head hitting object perspective, not an object hitting head perspective, so naturally I was intrigued by his design.  Apparently Bauer showed some interest as well and requested a prototype.  Ultimately they dismissed the design as heavy, ugly and unlikely to be more protective.  According to Mike, this was right after they learned he had filed patents on it.

What we need to understand about today's modern goalie masks is that they are not designed to prevent brain injury (concussion), they are designed to protect the skull.  These are two different areas of protection, that are only now being treated differently in the world of head protection.  Back to motocross helmets.  They are still being made with the same fiberglass, composite shells to protect the skull, along with dual or triple density foam liners just like goalie masks.  But now they have slip zones and other features that allow the helmet to dissipate energy separately between the shell and an inner liner upon impact.  It's essentially an omni-directional suspension system between the liner and shell.  This is supposed to be strictly for protecting the brain from injury as it slows the rotational forces applied to the head.  Easton started doing something like this in it's player helmets with the Gyro fit system years ago and Bauer has it now as well in their ReAkt helmet suspend-tech liner.  All of these liners are designed to do one thing and that's to slow down the acceleration and deceleration of the brain by allowing the helmet to slightly move independently over the liner upon impact, reducing how much of that force is applied directly to the head. 

All we have in modern goalie masks is essentially a protective shell with shock absorption.  Nothing in recent concussion research states that any of that is effective in preventing concussions because ultimately, that's not what anyone had in mind when they designed them.

Great stuff 

The rounder the better comment is interesting. I believe that’s always been of debate for hockey? Round vs rigid skull shape 

[raucebyalien]

Looks like we can add Matt Murray to this list now too....

[jayluv54]

23 hours ago, TheGoalNet said:

Great stuff 

The rounder the better comment is interesting. I believe that’s always been of debate for hockey? Round vs rigid skull shape 

I've always wondered why a spinning round disc would not glance off a round shell with much less force than if it hits a raised "ridge" where it could potentially transfer more energy because there's more of a grabbing effect.  At least that's the idea behind a round crash helmet, that when you hit the ground at speed, the helmet won't "grab" on to anything but more or less skip over any rocks or sticks along the way.

[ghscott]

Just registered after seeing this thread.  My son is a PeeWee AA goalie (12 year old) and sustained 2 concussions this season (5 months apart).  The first was during the first game of the season from a shot that hit him on the back of the head.  In his last game of the season (nice bookend injuries) he took a slap-shot square off the mask (NME10).  He doesn't remember the 2nd period (took the shot late in the 2nd), and 4 weeks later is still struggling with headaches.  Luckily his coach is a Dr for the Lightning, so he is getting the top treatment and seeing several specialists.

I felt like he was the only goalie getting concussions from blows to the head with pucks, but it seems to be occurring more this year.  I also think Cam Ward might have had one in Friday nights game against the Pens.  He took a shot square to the mask from Crosby and actually asked the ref to stop play to recollect himself.

I agree this is happening more based on knowledge and being more proactive, people/kids just played through it.  Also, it's tough as the Dr's don't want you back on the ice until you are 100% symptom free, which my son is not as of yet.  Also, as stated above, a lot of the symptoms are from the neck and whiplash.  I read that whiplash is from 6 g-forces, while a concussion is a result of 60 g-forces or greater.  So a slapshot at 70mph and above can absolutely cause enough g-forces to result both in a concussion and whiplash.  So, what can be done to prevent these head injuries?  One issue is that the technology in the sticks is increasing, while the goalie helmets are not.  Think wood baseball bats v. aluminum.  If you didn't have MLB using wood, the infielders would be getting killed.  They have also instituted regulations on bats in youth baseball to avoid injuries from the ball jumping off the bat.  I don't see stick technology going backwards, so hopefully the mask technology will move forward.  Maybe with all of the injuries this year, measures will be taken to improve the masks ASAP.

Until then, i tell my son to not stop anything with his head, and I am looking at Maltese Gel to replace the NME10 padding.  Anyone have any experiences with Maltese, or recommend any other foam?  I thought about a custom mask, but not sure how much more that will protect him than the NME10.

[1C5]

On 2/26/2018 at 10:57 AM, IPv6Freely said:

Worth pointing out that masks are made to prevent fracture, not concussion. Also worth pointing out that very few goalie concussions occur from a shot.

And then there's this:

I don't know what your definition of very few is. But within the last month or two, Mason, Hutch, Price, Murray all concussed with shots to the mask. Seems like a growing number of goalies it's happening to lately. 

[estogoalie]

17 hours ago, ghscott said:

Just registered after seeing this thread.  My son is a PeeWee AA goalie (12 year old) and sustained 2 concussions this season (5 months apart).  The first was during the first game of the season from a shot that hit him on the back of the head.  In his last game of the season (nice bookend injuries) he took a slap-shot square off the mask (NME10).  He doesn't remember the 2nd period (took the shot late in the 2nd), and 4 weeks later is still struggling with headaches.  Luckily his coach is a Dr for the Lightning, so he is getting the top treatment and seeing several specialists.

I felt like he was the only goalie getting concussions from blows to the head with pucks, but it seems to be occurring more this year.

Your son got concussed twice this season on shots from 12 year-olds? And wearing a $800 high-end mask? Is there more to the story here, because I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this (pardon the pun  ). Twelve year-olds bodies are simply no way near that of an adult, their shots are not THAT hard. I'm not doubting you saying that your son was concussed, I'm just wondering how it happened? Is the mask not fitting properly? Did he snap his head the wrong way and got the "whiplash" concussion? Did he bang his head on the ice after the shot? Were they freak shots? (I guess getting hit on the backplate is kind of a feak shot)

[ghscott]

48 minutes ago, estogoalie said:

Your son got concussed twice this season on shots from 12 year-olds? And wearing a $800 high-end mask? Is there more to the story here, because I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this (pardon the pun  ). Twelve year-olds bodies are simply no way near that of an adult, their shots are not THAT hard. I'm not doubting you saying that your son was concussed, I'm just wondering how it happened? Is the mask not fitting properly? Did he snap his head the wrong way and got the "whiplash" concussion? Did he bang his head on the ice after the shot? Were they freak shots? (I guess getting hit on the backplate is kind of a feak shot)

The first concussion was from a freak shot, back of the head.  Defense was no where to be seen in the corner, kid took a strong snapshot from behind the net that hit my son square in the back of the helmet.  After that concussion (he was out of practice for 4 weeks, back to game play in 7 weeks) I bought the NME10 and also smuggled a NeuroShield in from Canada.  He does not wear the NeuroShield, but that might become mandatory in my household.  After he was back, he took many shots off the mask and recently even a stick off the mask and was fine.  The latest concussion was from a 6'2" 160 lb. "12" year old's slap-shot.  My sons coach is a team Dr. for the Lightning, and said that the slap-shot was coming about 70-80 mph.  It hit him square in the mask, he fell straight down in the crease and the coach ran out on the ice.  It was a brutal shot.  I agree, most 12 years old's are not shooting that hard.  Actually, throughout the entire season of AA Pee-Wee, no one other than that supposed "12" year old was shooting that hard.  Whiplash is certainly a part of it, but it was a diagnosed concussion and he actually is having cranial and neck work done today.  Symptoms were much lighter in this second one, but the headache is persisting longer.  I am looking at 2nd Skull, Unequal Solo and the Maltese Gel.  As I said I already have the NeuroShield.  Issue is that he will have to move up to Bantam next year (Dec 28th Birthday), so he will be seeing harder shots.  I want him to skate out, but he only wants to play goalie (he must have a death wish).  I want to support him, but at the same time have to protect him in anyway that I can, either by giving him better equipment or not letting him play.  It is interesting in speaking with coaches and players in the area, no one seems to think there is a concern for goalies related to pucks to the mask and concussions.  I am hopeful that this recent string of NHL goalies getting injured by pucks, that the perception will change and tech will get better, or teaching kids to keep the shots down in practice.  Funny thing is, I am never concerned about him getting hurt in games, just practice because of the volume of shots...but the injuries have occurred in games.