Reebok XLT28 pads

[ArdeFIN]

I just have to start this out right now as I'm pretty exited for some reason which I don't even know. 

For some time now I've been after some black pads with white sewing to make a nice pair with my Eflex3 gloves that are really good looking and work very well too. And to make a bit more difficult I need them in about 33+X" size. 

Finally a pair of really decent looking Reeboks came to sale at local recycling store where I've bought gear before. Asking about 200 euros they were not cheap but not that expensive either. And they really are in very nice shape so I pulled the trigger so to say.

What I was a bit unsure of was that these are oldies already and from the era when pads were heavy, being light wasn't any target yet. The other thing was how would they be in stiffness arena? Should be the more stiff model but how stiff that is actually and after use over the years. The web findings were not very logical on these, the XLT pro is with one internal break and these should have two? What.

These ones had all the thingys with'em including thigh boards and all the leather straps. And they really are in excellent shape. Seems like the previous owner was someone like me, taking really good care of the expensive equipment. The left pad is already ripped off of the unnecessary parts.

The size of these is the sweetspot to me which is 33+2". I've tried CCM Eflex500 before in size 34+3 and my knee was on lower edge of the landing pad. With these it should be close to the middle, maybe a tad under.

To compare to something is naturally against my Warrior R/GT 33+1,5" pads which are almost perfect in size. Only +2 or +2,5 would be desirable if anything.

As you can notice there is a lot more than 0,5" in the length difference, 1,5" would be close. Knee pad is a tad higher on Reeboks as it felt when trying these on. It's also in a different angle which makes it look a lot higher in the picture.

So the weight is a concern. Which I'll address right away by weighting the start weight at 2900g for one pad. I've got some plans on how I wanna try the pad out so I took all the extra straps and thigh pads out for the starters. 270g of weight in those parts already.

But then to the real project on these. Throw out some ideas and opinions for the leg channel. I'm not planning any huge modifications but more trying to do things as much in the original state as possible. The strapping is one thing to upgrade, some elastic and whatever. And to say it out the Warrior setup is working really well and I cannot point one bad out of it. But I'm not going to copy it as is but implement the best and try some other things in too.

If I ditch the boot strap, what should I do with the flaps on the front of the pad? Those are two layer flaps and hard to cut out decently. I don't need them for anything then and no retrolook or whatever needs in here.

Throw in some mindset and I'll add some more detailed pictures of the leg channel in a few days to help seeing what's involved.

 

[ser33]

see my topic. maybe you will find something interesting for you.

 

[ArdeFIN]

Looked through it and there are some things and ideas yes.

About the leg channel strapping, what are the benefits of adding a second elastic and connecting them together to the velcro? Simplicity of use ofcourse is there as you only have "one" strap to set to the right setting. 

If I go with dual elastic, or one wide elastic, is there any preference to the height of it? This naturally is also about a possible professor strap which I would like to try as that then reduces the effect of the elastic, or atleast the top one if there are two.

I looked at the Brians Opt1k leg channel which is really nice also, but this Reebok has one difference. There is only one flap on the outside and three on the inside. As where Brians uses 2+3 where inner flaps are connected together with wide elastic and the outer ones are more like attached together so that they are not flying around.

And after all this debate I wonder why there has to be like 3 inside and 2 outside flaps on the leg channel? Wouldn't it be easier and simpler and all to have just 1+1 or maybe the 2 on the inside is needed, one to stand against the ice and the other making the leg channel.

Kova pads are the most ascetic ones there are I think, but with all that they have included are for reason. And nothing extra. Leg channel going inclinated is one interesting feature on them, you have your skate as close to the ice as possible.

This really is a new world to me and the more I try and study it the more there are questions and ideas. It'll be an interesting adventure.

[ser33]

12 hours ago, ArdeFIN said:

Looked through it and there are some things and ideas yes.

About the leg channel strapping, what are the benefits of adding a second elastic and connecting them together to the velcro? Simplicity of use ofcourse is there as you only have "one" strap to set to the right setting. 

If I go with dual elastic, or one wide elastic, is there any preference to the height of it? This naturally is also about a possible professor strap which I would like to try as that then reduces the effect of the elastic, or atleast the top one if there are two.

I looked at the Brians Opt1k leg channel which is really nice also, but this Reebok has one difference. There is only one flap on the outside and three on the inside. As where Brians uses 2+3 where inner flaps are connected together with wide elastic and the outer ones are more like attached together so that they are not flying around.

And after all this debate I wonder why there has to be like 3 inside and 2 outside flaps on the leg channel? Wouldn't it be easier and simpler and all to have just 1+1 or maybe the 2 on the inside is needed, one to stand against the ice and the other making the leg channel.

Kova pads are the most ascetic ones there are I think, but with all that they have included are for reason. And nothing extra. Leg channel going inclinated is one interesting feature on them, you have your skate as close to the ice as possible.

This really is a new world to me and the more I try and study it the more there are questions and ideas. It'll be an interesting adventure.

The V-shaped elastic band with fastening at the top and bottom of the pads is a further development of the Y-shaped strap idea used by Lundqvist on his TPS. it seems to me that the point is in a wider distribution of reactive force on the pad and better responsiveness of the pad. many manufacturers have followed this path - Bauer, Brians, Warrior. even CCM and Vaughn have similar straps

 

if you choose a double elastic, then focus on the attachment points as on my pads, or as on your Warrior. if one wide, then as on Premier 1 from CCM. but on this pad it has an auxiliary character and the main load is taken by the strap under the knee, which can be replaced with the Scrivens strap

I tried using the Scrivens strap but didn't like it. Ever since my Reebok P4, I have preferred a free leg channel. so on my Optik 1 I removed one valve from the foot canal from the outside

 

the number of valves on the leg canal is due to an attempt to equalize their overall thickness with the thickness of the knee block in order to provide support for the lower leg and reduce the load on it. the number of valves itself is not important, their total thickness is important. Bauer tried to reduce their number on his S150, S170 models, while maintaining the overall thickness. but this experiment ended and they returned to the traditional version

 

your thought that "Wouldn't it be simpler and simpler and everything to have only 1 + 1 or maybe 2 on the inside, one to stand on the ice and the other to create a leg channel." logical, but due to the pressure of the lower leg on them, the inner one will crumple and the load on the lower leg will increase

I saw a review of the Kova pads on Vesa Nyrönen on YouTube and I understand what you are talking about. in my opinion, the best compromise between the desire to provide support for the lower leg and the ability to place the skate closer to the ice was demonstrated by Brians, where the thick part of the inner wrap ends where the skate begins

there is one interesting site where the construction of the pad is in great detail and there are several ideas for improving their functionality

http://www.overdriveblade.com/boot.htm

p.s. I hope Google translator didn't distort my thoughts very much (laughs) and you all understood what I wanted to tell)

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by ser33

[ser33]

As for reducing the weight of the pad, you can go my way by thinning the top of the pad. all manufacturers do this on modern models

of course, in this case it is necessary to make the core thinner

Edited March 24, 2021 by ser33

[ArdeFIN]

On 3/24/2021 at 9:27 AM, ser33 said:

your thought that "Wouldn't it be simpler and simpler and everything to have only 1 + 1 or maybe 2 on the inside, one to stand on the ice and the other to create a leg channel." logical, but due to the pressure of the lower leg on them, the inner one will crumple and the load on the lower leg will increase

I saw a review of the Kova pads on Vesa Nyrönen on YouTube and I understand what you are talking about. in my opinion, the best compromise between the desire to provide support for the lower leg and the ability to place the skate closer to the ice was demonstrated by Brians, where the thick part of the inner wrap ends where the skate begins

 

I gave a thought for this today while I was working on floor level on my knees. No matter how I was setting my feets around and also did try some goalie style stances my calf or shin never did hit the floor. All of my weight is on knees and I stabilize my body a little with my ankle and mostly using my toes. Actually if you think about this from physics the better your stability is if you stand on three/four individual spots rather than on long flat surfaces where the support to your leg will vary all the time because the materials used in there have to be soft.

I'll have to look into this a bit further and also check how things are with my Warrior pads.

Then why we need that pressure to the shin section? I think it's purely to close the gap between pad and ice.

The Kova pads are equipped with huge, wide and open leg channel. And in Vesas video it seems to work for him perfectly.

[ser33]

 

perhaps we are talking about additional support for the entire leg to take the load off your knee. If you look at the photos of the guys from the NHL, you will notice that very often their foot hangs in the air without touching the ice, losing this additional fulcrum that you are talking about. also, I believe it affects what is called the ice compaction of the pad here. it's not for nothing that all manufacturers continue to do this, and Bauer at Ultrasonics even made a special cushion for the shin and, according to the results of the reviews, it works great and they have a very good seal.

 

Price's photo below shows what I'm talking about

Edited March 26, 2021 by ser33

[ArdeFIN]

If we only talk about how the weight is distributed on Prices legs in the picture, he form a tripod by both knees and right ankle/toes. Which again has the optimal stability of such stance. And Price is also leaning over his right leg so the left legs ankle and toes are under very little pressure there.

If you support your upper body with your shin area, that'll give a huge stress over to the muscles around your knee to keep it in position. Try it with some foam pad or such, move the support from under your knee and down the shin. When you sit down over your ankles while butterflying you settle your weight there. But that is a situation where you aren't really able to move anymore as a goalie. 

I would even claim that when down on your knees, you are supposed to be on your knees and nothing else. Human body isn't "designed" to be on knees so it isn't very nice position to be for a long time though.

That Overdrive text was a bit off and also oldish. It was a lot about padding protecting the ankle/skate area that is preventing you from setting your steel to ice. I can't drive my ankles down so that I could use the steel hitting ice, I have to lift my knee also. Ofcourse I'm not really flexible so some more athletic people might do so.

But there was also a lot about the leg channel to reach towards the ice when going down to ankle area. I'm tempted to add some of that to these XLT pads. I just have to figure out how I'm doing it because the leg channel lacing isn't helping in as it is originally and I'm not considering to move it, atleast not yet.

 

[Chenner29]

Filling void between the player's shin and calf wedge is something old made new again. 
The idea was on the CCM Blockade (maybe even earlier) and is making its rounds again with a lot of the recent pads hitting the market - off the top of my head, I can think of the True/Lefevre 20.1, CCM Axis, various Brian's models, and the Bauer Hyperlite. 

While the biomechanical discussion is interesting, I'd say it is pretty difficult for us to comment on specifically, unless anyone here has the correct background.

From a gear performance standpoint, I think we can trace the genesis back to the original Velocity line, and part of its appeal was the thicker-than-normal (at the time) knee riser system which was marketed as a way to raise the goalies knees higher up off the ice than the ankles to reduce hip and ankle strain in the butterfly. 

Across the current spectrum of manufacturers, it looks like most are electing to go with a soft pad under the calf wedge, which kind of goes along with the idea from the Velocity where you want your knees to be further up off the ice than the shin.

The idea applies here as it helps get the calf wedge down on the ice, to help create more surface area to slide on.  While it's a different part of the pad, the logic behind it from a performance standpoint is solid - by moving removing dead space under the knee, the pad becomes more responsive on a downward movement when you decide to drop into a butterfly. 

This photo below is what I'm talking about. 
You can see the goalie is on his way down into a butterfly, and the knee block and calf wedge are already on the way to fill space.

Here's another couple situations, featuring St Carey

Versus some older greats:

tldr; it's a gear cheat device

 

[ArdeFIN]

Excellent input! More of this, everyone who are using goalie pads and are thinking of anything about them bring it out!

And even more than discussion about what is I would like to hear if you have some dislikes on certain things. Like leg channel being too narrow or wide. Maybe some wedge or flap is in a wrong place, knee cradle with wrong material or shape, what ever.

From what I've seen with the gear I've looked at closer I'm really not convinced that all the people who design these things have any clue what is working or not. And then with all the details it comes to the point where every part of leg pad here should work together as a whole and do it well. Two details working solid alone might not go together at all. There is a whole lot of dynamics involved in these leg pads if you really start to think about it and break it into details. And whats best or worse of it is that all of us goalies use this gear just a little different ways. So what really clicks for some doesn't at all for the someone else. 

[dreadlocked1]

I would remove the stitched in landing gear, as a suggestion.  I have done it on my old RBK's to open up the knee area more when I first started using knee pads.

[ArdeFIN]

On 3/28/2021 at 6:54 PM, dreadlocked1 said:

I would remove the stitched in landing gear, as a suggestion.  I have done it on my old RBK's to open up the knee area more when I first started using knee pads.

You mean that soft padding around the knee, circled with green on picture?

It's not on the landing gear, only on front face and creating that outside knee flap. Landing gear is completely separate which is nice. Yes that is going to be removed. All open space for knee and knee pads. And actually I don't know why would anyone these days like of any additional padding towards the front face of the pad? 

Looked at my LT88 pads lying in the storage and noticed interesting detail on calf area. The outest flap there is recessed in for some reason? The flap with Ventus text on it is only very soft LD foam and seems to be more of a comfort thing in these pads.

Edited March 29, 2021 by ArdeFIN

[dreadlocked1]

Yes, the knee cradle is what I meant and you green boxed perfectly.  I removed that from my pads and a friend's CCM Eflex set and it's much nicer without it imo.

[ser33]

14 hours ago, ArdeFIN said:

Looked at my LT88 pads lying in the storage and noticed interesting detail on calf area. The outest flap there is recessed in for some reason? The flap with Ventus text on it is only very soft LD foam and seems to be more of a comfort thing.

the same was with the Bauer 1c and on some Brians models but on the knee block. it was believed that this improved the seal of ice

[ser33]

also take a look at the review on the new Hyperlight.

how the lower leg support was implemented and why it was done

"Balance Plate

The most noticeable change is the new calf block which sits on the inside of the shin. Much like the calf pillow seen on the Ultrasonic pad, this block is designed to keep the goalie’s ankle in line with their knee reducing stress and strain on the knee while also providing a better seal due to the weight being more evenly spread across the pad."

https://www.thehockeyshop.com/blogs/goalie-gear-reviews/bauer-vapor-hyperlite-leg-pad-review

Edited March 29, 2021 by ser33

[ArdeFIN]

That seems to be a compromise of achieving good seal on ice but still not too much of structure under the calf/shin area.

If we look at human leg and especially the shin. On the inside edge the knee is very pronounced as is the ankle. But there is a wide variety in human structure and goes in here too. That might be one reason that some pads just don't fit someones butterfly but cause strange problems. That is having too much or too little support there.

I looked through some of those THS reviews and the photos of the leg channel and strapping are really nice to compare. Quite a lot of similarities after all. Especially the Axis/Eflex5 was nice to look at as there are some similarities some idea that could easily be adapted to my project.

Are there other websites where there are pads reviewed and nice set of pictorial data included?

Edited March 29, 2021 by ArdeFIN

[ser33]

12 hours ago, ArdeFIN said:

That seems to be a compromise of achieving good seal on ice but still not too much of structure under the calf/shin area.

If we look at human leg and especially the shin. On the inside edge the knee is very pronounced as is the ankle. But there is a wide variety in human structure and goes in here too. That might be one reason that some pads just don't fit someones butterfly but cause strange problems. That is having too much or too little support there.

I looked through some of those THS reviews and the photos of the leg channel and strapping are really nice to compare. Quite a lot of similarities after all. Especially the Axis/Eflex5 was nice to look at as there are some similarities some idea that could easily be adapted to my project.

Are there other websites where there are pads reviewed and nice set of pictorial data included?

except THS, I only know IngoalMag with detailed reviews, but now the full content is available only by subscription.

[ArdeFIN]

Inspiration to make some progress with these pads now.

It was at 2630g about for a pad at the moment, and as said earlier the knee cradle padding is gonna go and I'll have the cradle as open as possible. And as smooth and slick as possible too. Slicky is the easiest part as the base material used is nylon fabric which does the job for me. The added padding was laced in with the body lace which I don't want to cut, so I just cut the padding open by the lace. It cameout decent, no damage to pad which was the main thing and the padding is still useable for some future project. Also the thigh pad attachment had to go, no thigh pads used with these anymore!

Then I just though why the heck not and opened the outer side of the pad to take out those top three leather pads used for the leather strap anchors. And as it usually does the thing went out of hands and with the same process I opened the side to the ankle level and removed all the leather straps.

This has one benefit which made my decision easier, now I can access the calf flap and open it to replace and add some velcro for the new strapping. You can see in the picture the knee velcro is halfway ripped off already so repairs needed there.

While the edge was open I thought to rip off the tags too. A picture of them to remember what this all was about.

What does it mean on the identifier: ...-cust? Is it meaning custom or customer line or what? Atleast the colorway of all black except stiching is pretty rare?

Then I looked at what kind of materials are used in the body. There seems to be three layers, the front layer is hard but pretty airy foam and the two inner layers are softer but airy foam, density might be medium. Same kind of material that is used on camping matress. 

On the outer edges of the thighrise the inner soft layer is replaced with a sheet of the hard foam. The thigh rise is a bit wobbly and not as rigid as I had expected and here might be the reason or atleast part of it. The glueing between the layers has failed and by that there is a lot of extra play in the materials.

Side note on breaks, these pads are marked almost everywhere to have double internal break, but materialvise there is only one break below knee. Atleast on these pads.

This is probably one reason for older pads to become really soft, but there's no easy way to fix it. Many of the newer pads include only two layers of different foams and maybe a layer of some composite material. And with better glueing and rigidity the problem on newer pads is that materials just crack at where they are bent.

And one last for this evening, the weight I managed to get rid of today.

So after todays achievements I'm at 2430g, which is already pretty good I think. Ofcourse there will be weight coming back to the pads with the new strapping.

Next is to figure out how I want the velcro on the calf flap and dismantle, add and put the side back together. For the knee-to-calf strap I was going to use nylon but not sure if I go with velcro or add in a quick buckle in Warrior style. No elastic here anyway. 

To the outer calf strap I thought it would give some adjustability if I use the leather strap openings and join the straps together to the outer side and attach with velcro.

I'm still battling myself with boot strap, do I need it for anything? I'm used to have it on my Warrior pads, but unsure if it is really doing anything but being in there. Though it is elastic material so it'll work in there without noticing. I'm just a little tempted to add an elastic strap here too but is it necessary or just extra weight...

[ArdeFIN]

Not too much for today but a little, scratched all the old glue out I could. For the harder sheet I first used sand paper to break the surface. Then using a drill bit on a drill swinged all over the sheet to open up the surface even more. 

Then did the same to the main sheet inside the pad for as long in as I could. The top end of the pad is so tight inside that it'll propably hold the sheets together pretty well as they were still attached by the original glue.

Then some glue that defines "will attach almost all materials" but they don't usually attach to plastics. We'll see how it goes with this one. Instead of strings all around the sheet I gave it a full covering glue layer as it should be fully attached to the other layer. And yes the glue used will remain pretty elastic when dry.

Then some pressure with clamp and some wedge under the thigh rise to try and secure the S-shape. Only now I realized I could've heated up the sheet and give it a little curvature before glueing.

There are two wedges under to keep the thigh rise straight. Hopefully it regains some of the original rigidity with this operation.

Then I opened up the calf flap to start repairing the velcros and add the new knee - calf strap. I'm going with nylon strap and propably a plastic quick buckle a'la Warrior pads. Why try to invent it again?

Edited April 14, 2021 by ArdeFIN

[ser33]

I understand correctly that you are not planning a complete disassembly of the pads?) I do not want to upset, but this may be there

the glue that held all the foams together is very short-lived. and the foam core itself cracks over time. Bauer has the same trouble

In my experience, the best adhesive for foam sheets is the one used in the shoe industry. it has many analogues, including Henkel

and for gluing the foam, it is better to use a special glue for polystyrene

 

all layers in the factory are glued together with thin strips of glue, which deteriorate over time. to restore the stiffness of the core, I recommend applying the glue to the entire surface, this will provide the best stiffness

Edited April 15, 2021 by ser33

[ArdeFIN]

Yes I'm aiming to keep the pad as much together as possible due to them being in good condition and obviously very little use.

I've been looking for those polystyren sheets and parts but haven't seen them yet. Have to recheck next time because I'm sure they are there as it's been a normal material there for a long time in RBK/CCM/Lefebvre design.

I opened the package today to see how things are now. I didn't give a lot of force to the pad yet as the plastics are airtight and the glue might take some time to cure completely. But for what I tried the pad is really, I mean really stiff above knee break. The difference is something I didn't expect at all for such foams used there. What was disappointing with that is the fact that I now have to open the inner side of the pad and attach the same sheet with new glue there too. It is flexing like hell now and the face of the thighrise is twisting as a result. 

Hopefully I got enough of the curve included to the pad as it's not really bending now and I don't want to open that place again to change the curve.

Also got the calf flap halfway done, new velcro for the knee strap and about 10mm shortened top edge to give more room for calf.

Edited April 15, 2021 by ArdeFIN

[ArdeFIN]

Other pad is readdy to be sewn together but as the pads need a lot of room to fit in the machine I thought I should prepare the other pad too and then sew them both in one time. 

So the same start, removal of the buckles and knee cradle padding and open up the edges. Damnit why is this pad a lot worse than the first one? The rigidity is really gone and the layers are separated a lot more. Uh oh and then we start glueing it back.

The pad wasn't opened from the other side at all but this one had to be as the sheet was all the way loose.

Hopefully the curve is even close to the other pad.

[ArdeFIN]

After I got the calf flaps done and back together I decided to send the pads out to Varusteverstas (Kova goalie) to install Vinyl on kneeblocks and make some minor repairs that were hard for me to do without getting a lot more tools and materials. These included fixing the boot strap holes and bindings on both ends of the pads. They also installed the professor straps and Bauer style calf straps while edges were open. And after fixing everything they sewed the pads and got them ready for me.

It took a long time but I had no hurry to get them back. And when I got them back I couldn't be more pleased of the result. Everything is done and the quality of work is good. Not like factory new and you can tell the renewed parts and areas but that doesn't matter on pads that old already.

And after two times on ice with them they do work. Beautifully. Different than my Warriors, but not so much that I could tell when game is on. They just are with my legs and get the job done.

The weight of one pad now that I have everything installed and ready is a whopping 2510grams. A lot one could say and definitely I can feel it when I can compare to my Warrior GT pads one after other. But that weight difference matters a lot less than I would've thought from the numbers.

I have the professor straps now and they are there without making a number of themselves. Nice. 

I didn't make any sort of boot or ankle strap and didn't need any. Actually after few ice times with these pads being without I took the step ahead and removed the strap from my Warriors. And on those pads, I think and trying to be objective, it made a positive change. My ankle feels more free and the pad feels to rotate even better than before. Then I made the toeties even longer for Warriors and they felt better again. On Reeboks I have 4mm elastic cord with skate lace over it to protect. On both pads the toe elastic runs through the cowling and is tied to the Lundy loop on my S29 skates.

How about the vinyl vs. PE sheet on knee block? Well the vinyl requires a bit of snow to slide well. On a fresh new ice it was a bit sticky. But just a bit of snow on and there's no difference between, both materials slide like a dream. I do love that the pads slide a much as possible.

Pictures of the pads will follow later on, I didn't get any of them yet. Quess I was so exited about them that I just forgot 

Edited November 1, 2021 by ArdeFIN

[ArdeFIN]

Some pictures as this thread is useless without pictures.

The front of the pads. Not much to say or show. New bindings well made. Boot strap used to go over the boot area and those were removed and hidden. If you don't know you can't even notice the change.

The new strapping system. I'm going to change the top calf strap to be attached with velcro to between the flaps and propably add the triangle there too to widen the lock in. Other than that it works and is simple enough. On the bottom right you can notice the boot strap hole covered with black jenpro piece.

The leg channel. It is original and I couldn't figure any changes needed here. The Professor strap attachment went wrong, I wanted to have adjustability up and down the calf under knee but the tab is made to adjust the length of the strap. And the strap made by Kova already has plenty of length adjustment. But as said luckily the strap is in the right place. Maybe later on I'll try it in a different position to see if it's any better. Boot area pictures were not focused right so I'll be back here later on.