Px3 - Toe Ties, CRS

[Chenner29]

@TheGoalNet shared via Instagram a mod I'm testing out on my Px3s.

I've stitched in some Bauer-style CRS straps (made by Sara at PAW) to run through the Lundy loop on the back of my skates, and have just switched out the stock ProLace Armor Hybrids (1" gap + 3/4" spacer = 1-3/4" slack in the toe) in the photo to traditional skate lace for testing.

Was questioned on the purpose of it by a few people so I'll detail out my theorycrafting here, and to me it boils down to trying to balance the pros and cons of skate toe lace vs elastic toe lace:

Elastic toes pros/cons:

1. +: flexibility at the toe when needed
2. +: Keeps toe of skate tighter to toe bridge for better pad control when moving (let's call it "toe slop" here)
3. -: Toe box integration and loading off the post in RVH are awkward, elastic continues to give as you push force through it
4. -: Elastic toes are great on the way down into a butterfly to reduce hip/knee/ankle strain, but once you are down and pushing for more range you are causing greater stress to those areas as you are working against the elastics

Skate lace pros/cons:

1. +: Set end point, you always know how much it will let out
2. +: Better integration to post with toe box RVH integration
3. -: More slack = more toe slop - pad slides in all directions around the toe of your skate
4. -: In order to get the same amount of hip/ankle/knee freedom, you need to run more slack with skate lace.

As of right now it seems like the current setup only has good things going on for it.  I'm running a 2" gap between the bridge and my first knot.

Skate lace w/CRS pros/cons:

1. +: Still have your set end point with the skate lace
2. +: Skate lace grants the better RVH post integration
3. +: a tight enough CRS forces the skate boot forward in the boot channel
4. +: Running a longer skate lace to give the flex and rotation, while using CRS to moderate how much freedom you get while still being able to give when you need it

Will report back as I get reps with this build.  This all may be redundant with a tight enough FRS setup in the calf area.

Here's some visuals:

Below is a top down shot of the toe bridge, without CRS support. 
You can imagine how much toe slop there is here. 
My skates would be going every which way in a 2"-ish arc centered around the toe bridge, represented by the yellow line

Below is a zoomed out photo.  Note the toe of the pad will probably droop forward like this when you're in your stance - could have both a potential positive and negative effect - pro (shorter thigh rise, easier to move) and a con (sloppy feeling pad/boot)

Below is the skate set up with CRS through the Lundy loop.
You can see the skate toe is a lot tighter to the toe bar

[ZeroGravitas]

[CPage]

@Chenner29 I was having the same reflection the other day. I did some very brief experimentation of my own (note that I’m in the Warrior R/GT-2, so no professor strap or FRS available without modifications; knee strap is attached at the calf and leg channel is pretty wide, I do have the option to add a bootstrap/CRS) and my conclusion was that the CRS through the Lundy loop created a restriction in the ankle when in the bfly that didn’t feel right; enough so to counteract the benefit of the lack of toe slop (needless to say, I had tons when using skate lace with nothing to anchor the pad firmly to my leg). I also found there were some rotation issues with the pads when coming up out of the bfly (maybe CRS was too tight?). Anyway, I promptly ended the experiment, went back to my elastic toe-ties and told myself I’d revisit skate lace if and when I upgrade to a pad with professor strap/FRS. My RVH technique probably isn’t precise enough for it to make much difference anyway… : )

I also did a very non-scientific survey of what guys in the Show seem to have as a setup (after reading on this forum that most guys are still in skate lace, to my surprise!) and it seems divided between FRS/some form of elastic strap running fairly tight across the top of the calf, or some variation of the CRS/bootstrap. Some guys also seem to like (or be willing to live with?) a fair bit of toe slop…!

All that being said, I will be very interested to read your impressions of this setup after a few tries; especially the bit about the CRS potentially being redundant with a tight enough FRS in the calf as you mention, which is something my current pads don’t allow me to test.

[Chenner29]

18 minutes ago, CPage said:

@Chenner29 I was having the same reflection the other day. I did some very brief experimentation of my own (note that I’m in the Warrior R/GT-2, so no professor strap or FRS available without modifications; knee strap is attached at the calf and leg channel is pretty wide, I do have the option to add a bootstrap/CRS) and my conclusion was that the CRS through the Lundy loop created a restriction in the ankle when in the bfly that didn’t feel right; enough so to counteract the benefit of the lack of toe slop (needless to say, I had tons when using skate lace with nothing to anchor the pad firmly to my leg). I also found there were some rotation issues with the pads when coming up out of the bfly (maybe CRS was too tight?). Anyway, I promptly ended the experiment, went back to my elastic toe-ties and told myself I’d revisit skate lace if and when I upgrade to a pad with professor strap/FRS. My RVH technique probably isn’t precise enough for it to make much difference anyway… : )

I also did a very non-scientific survey of what guys in the Show seem to have as a setup (after reading on this forum that most guys are still in skate lace, to my surprise!) and it seems divided between FRS/some form of elastic strap running fairly tight across the top of the calf, or some variation of the CRS/bootstrap. Some guys also seem to like (or be willing to live with?) a fair bit of toe slop…!

All that being said, I will be very interested to read your impressions of this setup after a few tries; especially the bit about the CRS potentially being redundant with a tight enough FRS in the calf as you mention, which is something my current pads don’t allow me to test.

So the idea all stemmed from what I noticed with Bob, he runs a CRS through the back of his boot.  Here it looks like he's using Prolaces (you can see the black spacer on his right skate) and you can see the CRS on his left skate - this may be from either last year or early this year.

On his most recent set, it looks like he's gone back to skate lace and no CRS.

[Chenner29]

@CPage Forgot to respond to this portion of your post

Quote

I do have the option to add a bootstrap/CRS) and my conclusion was that the CRS through the Lundy loop created a restriction in the ankle when in the bfly that didn’t feel right; enough so to counteract the benefit of the lack of toe slop (needless to say, I had tons when using skate lace with nothing to anchor the pad firmly to my leg). I also found there were some rotation issues with the pads when coming up out of the bfly (maybe CRS was too tight?)

I skated today, the CRS that PAW made for me is about 8" closed, 11" opened up.  Below is the picture I sent her to copy.
Wore the pads with 2.25" of slack at the toe including the knots.  Did not have issues in the ankles in or out of the butterfly, they actually centered around my leg pretty well when recovering to my feet.  Sara uses a pretty thick/strong elastic in her parts.  It feels much heavier duty than I remember the Bauer version being.  So, not sure if it what you experienced was  material quality issue?  Did your pads refuse to rotate back?
I also skip the top eyelet in my skates and have the older True one-piece with the leather loop in the back.

[tgfoo]

I had been thinking about going back to laces recently, mainly just out of curiosity, but also to see if it's different/better for hip/knee/ankle strain overall. I'll most likely try it out at the beginning of the summer season with the CRS strap that I gave up on. I had similar issues that @CPage where I felt there were rotation issues. Though, I don't think it was entirely the fault of the CRS strap, I had issues getting Bauer's tune fit strapping loose enough for my liking, but I've largely solved that issue but swapping in their new tune fit+ strap in.

[CPage]

On 4/23/2023 at 9:01 PM, Chenner29 said:

@CPage Forgot to respond to this portion of your post

I skated today, the CRS that PAW made for me is about 8" closed, 11" opened up.  Below is the picture I sent her to copy.
Wore the pads with 2.25" of slack at the toe including the knots.  Did not have issues in the ankles in or out of the butterfly, they actually centered around my leg pretty well when recovering to my feet.  Sara uses a pretty thick/strong elastic in her parts.  It feels much heavier duty than I remember the Bauer version being.  So, not sure if it what you experienced was  material quality issue?  Did your pads refuse to rotate back?
I also skip the top eyelet in my skates and have the older True one-piece with the leather loop in the back.

Thanks for the info @Chenner29!

To answer your question: yes, the pads were struggling to rotate back to center.

I’m using the elastics that came with the Warriors. Hard to comment on the quality, but they don’t seem cheap to me per se… I measured and they’re 11’’ long between connection points (longest available setting); so even longer than yours in the closed position. So I wonder if it’s the anchor point on the pad or maybe the different boot construction compared to your Trues that makes the difference. My first experiment was done with a pair of Bauer Pros (with vertexx cowling) through a Lundy loop I had installed. I just got my hands on a pair of ccm as1s so maybe I’ll give it another go with those… As I write, I’m wondering if the cowling toe cap could be rubbing on the underside of the pad boot given the added friction from the elastic and hindering rotation…?

Anyway! I’m glad the setup seems to work well for you. Without the ankle restriction sensation or rotation issues, I agree that this setup is the best of both worlds! Based on your experience, would you say that the CRS does a better (or as good) job combatting toe slop as a tight FRS setup when using skate lace (like what Bob seems to have in the second picture you showed)?

[Chenner29]

2 hours ago, CPage said:

Thanks for the info @Chenner29!

As I write, I’m wondering if the cowling toe cap could be rubbing on the underside of the pad boot given the added friction from the elastic and hindering rotation…?

Anyway! I’m glad the setup seems to work well for you. Without the ankle restriction sensation or rotation issues, I agree that this setup is the best of both worlds! Based on your experience, would you say that the CRS does a better (or as good) job combatting toe slop as a tight FRS setup when using skate lace (like what Bob seems to have in the second picture you showed)?

I don't think the cowling would affect pad rotation.

I'll get a few more skates in and follow up the rest of your post.  I will say I wear my FRS pretty loose so that first ice session was promising with what I'm trying to achieve.

[Chenner29]

So weird.

These all popped up in my IG feed recently

https://www.instagram.com/p/Crfqv4GATcX/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Crf_wNPAK4K/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CqQbgC8PZSx/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

[Chenner29]

So I'm 4 skates in with this mod, really enjoying it.  The CRS puts some rear tension on the pad, so the toes seem to center slightly better than if I were running them with just skate lace.  While there is some of a disconnected feeling with the toe, visually the pads seem to re-center better than without CRS.

No issues popping in and out of butterfly either, rotations are smooth and easy.

Here's some vid clips of a stuck and puck I went to so you can see how they're rotating

 

[keeperton]

On 4/26/2023 at 8:28 AM, Chenner29 said:

So weird.

These all popped up in my IG feed recently

https://www.instagram.com/p/Crfqv4GATcX/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Crf_wNPAK4K/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CqQbgC8PZSx/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

"Babe, new conspiracy theory just dropped."

Wasn't the goalie community saying how stupid using skate lace with a bunch of knots was a few years back? That is what I grew up doing and I still prefer the bungees, though I'm also really interested in the Pro Laces combo one that's supposedly coming out this summer (I don't remember who posted that on here in some other thread).

[Chenner29]

7 minutes ago, netminder said:

This isn't what I would qualify as getting back to squared face.

I never said they recenter perfectly:
"The CRS puts some rear tension on the pad, so the toes seem to center slightly better than if I were running them with just skate lace.  While there is some of a disconnected feeling with the toe, visually the pads seem to re-center better than without CRS."

If you read the original post, part of the problem I was having with stock laces is that my skate boot would slide back behind the toe box of the pad

Quote

Seems way too sloppy and that casual move amplifies it in the pic.

I'm not following, what casual move

3 hours ago, keeperton said:

"Babe, new conspiracy theory just dropped."

Wasn't the goalie community saying how stupid using skate lace with a bunch of knots was a few years back? That is what I grew up doing and I still prefer the bungees, though I'm also really interested in the Pro Laces combo one that's supposedly coming out this summer (I don't remember who posted that on here in some other thread).

ProLaces "PUSH"

https://www.instagram.com/p/CpFgaXduhfC/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

[ArdeFIN]

On 4/26/2023 at 6:28 PM, Chenner29 said:

So weird.

These all popped up in my IG feed recently

https://www.instagram.com/p/Crfqv4GATcX/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Crf_wNPAK4K/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CqQbgC8PZSx/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

This is always entertaining as how black and white these posts see the bungees. There seems to be no other option than stiff. 

But for sure we have to remember the function of toe laces for pros, using them to push out from the post. Hell I can't even push myself out of the post as my BF doesn't flare enough. 

Would be a million dollar invention to put best of the both worlds together. Lace to push off from the post and bungee to rotate the pad.

[tgfoo]

After thinking about it for a bit, I think I'm going to introduce more slack back into my TNG spec ProLaces instead of going full laces. I hoping this might give me a nice combo of slack combined with some of the benefits of a bungie but without the hard end point of a lace and pullback from a bungie when it's at maximum stretch. I origin had and then took out the slack because I had issues rotating back to center and I never tried adding slack or the CSR bootstrap back in after I changed up and solved my strapping issues. Figured I may as well experiment now that a new season is starting.