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Pad breaks


ArdeFIN
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Breaks on the pads are some sort of relic in these days, what is the use of them? Exception here is the boot break, that is a working thing.

Why do we have to have a break below knee? Knee is hinge and bends not below but in front of if you see it from pads direction. 

Is having a bend on a pad below knee some sort of deflecting direction thing? Again thinkin of a leg physically you would need a pad to bend in front of knee, not below.

I began thinking of this as I got a bit frustrated with my XLT pads. I love the S shape on them though and as I love Warrior pads I was thinking why Warrior (and all others) is bent below knee and the thigh rise is straight? With my non-existent flare I have to have S-shaped pads and Warrior doesn't offer that as standard. Looking for other choises like Bauer Supreme the shape is just the same, only curve on the face is below knee? Why not at the knee or even a bit above? That would give you pretty constant direction for puck reflections when most of the pad is straight eg. boot to thigh and only the thigh rise would curve in to close the 5-hole if needed.

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On 2/28/2022 at 10:45 AM, ArdeFIN said:

Breaks on the pads are some sort of relic in these days, what is the use of them? Exception here is the boot break, that is a working thing.

Why do we have to have a break below knee? Knee is hinge and bends not below but in front of if you see it from pads direction. 

Is having a bend on a pad below knee some sort of deflecting direction thing? Again thinkin of a leg physically you would need a pad to bend in front of knee, not below.

I began thinking of this as I got a bit frustrated with my XLT pads. I love the S shape on them though and as I love Warrior pads I was thinking why Warrior (and all others) is bent below knee and the thigh rise is straight? With my non-existent flare I have to have S-shaped pads and Warrior doesn't offer that as standard. Looking for other choises like Bauer Supreme the shape is just the same, only curve on the face is below knee? Why not at the knee or even a bit above? That would give you pretty constant direction for puck reflections when most of the pad is straight eg. boot to thigh and only the thigh rise would curve in to close the 5-hole if needed.

IMO

The retail market has predominantly shifted towards two types of pads:

  1. stiff top to bottom with a firm boot break (CCM Axis/Bauer Supreme), or
  2. stiff thigh and soft boot (CCM Eflex/Bauer Vapor).

The demographic looking for a double knee break, S-curve pad is primarily adults, and that segment is losing players year over year (injuries, retirement, etc) - so chasing this type of customer is a losing proposition.  On the other hand, there's always more young goalies aging into a pro level pad.  In some cases, you can get these kids to buy a new set every year because they just keep growing.

These younger guys are playing a more structured game than we grew up with (both as a whole and within themselves) and within that structure comes a need for gear that feels the same over identical repetition.

An above thigh pad break is actually detrimental to the modern goalie as that creates a flex point for a hard shot to power through.  It would be the same with an at-knee break.  The only retail pad I can recall with at at-knee break was the Itech 12.8 - the pads didn't really break in, they would just straight up break at the knee to the point where the thigh rises became like pinball paddles.

Best example that I can recall is a Dallas goal against VGK in the playoff bubble two years ago.  Benn blows it under the thigh rise on Lehner.  You could say that there is some athlete mechanic issues here (sloppy stick and Lehner opens up just a bit as the shot arrives) - but I would argue a firmer faced pad would have stopped this because the entire pad would have held its shape and A) sealed the ice and B) would not have snapped inwards upon impact

image.png.50f3b371b279815b4cc9ca6ea59c66c0.pngimage.png.e21d459ea45f46e9372bdf423e7ca960.png

 

 

 

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I feel like the goal against Lehner was more about not having any weight on the pads as the puck arrived. He went down a half-second early and tried to shift laterally to regain his angle, thus lifting his weight off of the left pad. I don’t think this puck powered through the thigh-rise so much as it went under it because it was off the ice. Remember a puck is only an inch tall so not much space is required. 

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I'm going to weigh in here and say that the GNetikIV does have a small five-hole seal problem on the thighs that was fixed on the Optik 2 and GNetikV; note that it is not a rotation issue but a seal issue. I've had a few goals go in like this (where I could have played it better, I'll own that).

I've got my next set coming in with a stiffer knee and thigh, as well as no outer roll break.

9 hours ago, Chenner29 said:

These younger guys are playing a more structured game than we grew up with (both as a whole and within themselves) and within that structure comes a need for gear that feels the same over identical repetition.

An above thigh pad break is actually detrimental to the modern goalie as that creates a flex point for a hard shot to power through.  It would be the same with an at-knee break.  The only retail pad I can recall with at at-knee break was the Itech 12.8 - the pads didn't really break in, they would just straight up break at the knee to the point where the thigh rises became like pinball paddles.

I do not think any of what you said is particularly incorrect. I do want to say a couple of things though:

  • The vast majority of younger goalies I coach do not seem to know what they want out of a pad other than feel on the leg in terms of strapping and balance. I think the way the game is taught/played definitely loans itself to what you are saying though.
    • Not a huge sample size, but the highest level kids I'm coaching/have worked with are in: Ultrasonics (x2, one came from Axis), 2S, SLR, G5->V9, Axis->Hyperlite, Eflex5, and GNetikIV (3-3-4 TKA).
  • Weren't some TPS pads "at-knee" break (Xlite, Xceed, Summit)? I think I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here, but would love to continue the discourse.

 

Edited by keeperton
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I generally agree with Chenner29

but it seems to me that ArdeFIN was talking about something else. maybe it's "lost in translation" so please forgive me, but here's what I'm thinking:

"break" and "curve" are still different things. using the core of my 1S pads as an example.

it's "break"

jad15HKDdP8.thumb.jpg.6995f4c83a2d81fdf6d9ea98fa04d896.jpg

it allows the pad to flex in that spot

after I glued it, it turned into a "curve" - a place for changing the shape of the pad. the pad lost the ability to bend in this place, but got a clear Z-shape

bADIXHdZkNA.thumb.jpg.4365c73271c0940db88c5f066e70c412.jpg

therefore, I don't see anything wrong with having a "curve" above the knee to give the pad an "S" shape to better cover the 5th hole. but! only if it's done by "curve" and not "break", i.e., keeping the pad stiff and not bending. otherwise, what Chenner29 said will happen.

here is the beautiful S-shape of the Premiere.

d57119dd0bed8f5045df100e1e12bfa7.jpg.e7bf5c2fdc3ca8d6b9ee9ed7178d6f86.jpg.9da17e9d47809258582c1556af54d7fb.jpg

as you can see in the photo, it is achieved by the presence of "breaks" on the hardest external HD foam, which will inevitably lead to flexing on a strong impact

IMO, the same thing (with a combination of other conditions) happened in the case of Lenner

Optiks are designed to have a "break" above the knee (we are talking about Optik 1). at the same time, a one-piece, non-breaking part of the outer HD foam in this place is very thin and cannot provide sufficient bending strength

Gh0jlwPT5Vk.thumb.jpg.9fcada50772e1199831722d467d1da1f.jpg

knowing these subtleties of design, for example, I could make S-shaped pads, devoid of a break above the knee and not have the problem of too soft this part, which would prevent the situation with Lenner

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41 minutes ago, keeperton said:

I'm going to weigh in here and say that the GNetikIV does have a small five-hole seal problem on the thighs that was fixed on the Optik 2 and GNetikV; note that it is not a rotation issue but a seal issue. I've had a few goals go in like this (where I could have played it better, I'll own that).

I've got my next set coming in with a stiffer knee and thigh, as well as no outer roll break.

I do not think any of what you said is particularly incorrect. I do want to say a couple of things though:

  • The vast majority of younger goalies I coach do not seem to know what they want out of a pad other than feel on the leg in terms of strapping and balance. I think the way the game is taught/played definitely loans itself to what you are saying though.
    • Not a huge sample size, but the highest level kids I'm coaching/have worked with are in: Ultrasonics (x2, one came from Axis), 2S, SLR, G5->V9, Axis->Hyperlite, Eflex5, and GNetikIV (3-3-4 TKA).

I can see how I was unclear here - I used "younger" in a sense of goalies younger than our general demographic here on the board (30s/40s) and that's basically everyone -lol.  I would guess that goalies in 14u and up in AAA start thinking and critically analyzing their game and how their gear can benefit their play style (mostly because that's when I started really breaking it down myself), but I'm not involved with coaching or anything like that, so I'll defer to your experience with it

Quote

Weren't some TPS pads "at-knee" break (Xlite, Xceed, Summit)? I think I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here, but would love to continue the discourse.

I think you're correct on the X-Lite.  The straight line across the face of the pad looks like it lines up to the flex dart on the outer gusset and the knee assembly on the back of the pad.  Pads were so much shorter back then - the amount of pad above the break looks like it would go above the knee rolls now

image.png.e8bfeb8fba254c43cf841ecba44092e3.pngimage.png.55b0d6fa1c095e593aef46644a5d0379.png

X-ceed had knee rolls

image.png.9c676051629bedd4123cd818d554dc25.png

Summit had knee rolls

image.png.974872cf102869f70d0f74a3d35f42ff.png

Nice trip down memory lane

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Good discussion here, thanks for all for that.

My first post got a bit messed up and lead to areas I didn't intend. 

@ser33 got it right as I meant to ask why do pads have a break under knee? What is the use of that or has ever been? That I referred to with knee being a hinge and if any it would benefit from a break in front of knee. Double break in under and above would do that atleast kind of, but still the main question remains; why there are any breaks?

I might have one answer that comes from times when there was leather strapping for thighs and that required the pad to flex around the knee to allow the thigh strapping to be used at all.

Then my last caption of S curve was meant to leave the break discussion behind and leave the breaks out of the pad. Idea of a "new" pad style, boot break is there if needed (I might for feel of it), straight shin continues to knee level or just above for constant reflecting surface and the thigh rise is curved for 5-hole closure without break so the whole face of the pad is a stiff plate. Except the boot that might be flexible. Definitely this kind of pad might look weird at first and I really don't know if it would work at all. Just a vision of how I would try to improve things and get rid of options that don't give any benefits.

Modern goalies with almost 180 degree flare don't really need this S-curve at all and that is new trend, but I don't know if all the hobbying goalies will ever reach that sort of flare?

 

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31 minutes ago, ArdeFIN said:

Good discussion here, thanks for all for that.

My first post got a bit messed up and lead to areas I didn't intend. 

@ser33 got it right as I meant to ask why do pads have a break under knee? What is the use of that or has ever been? That I referred to with knee being a hinge and if any it would benefit from a break in front of knee. Double break in under and above would do that atleast kind of, but still the main question remains; why there are any breaks?

I might have one answer that comes from times when there was leather strapping for thighs and that required the pad to flex around the knee to allow the thigh strapping to be used at all.

Then my last caption of S curve was meant to leave the break discussion behind and leave the breaks out of the pad. Idea of a "new" pad style, boot break is there if needed (I might for feel of it), straight shin continues to knee level or just above for constant reflecting surface and the thigh rise is curved for 5-hole closure without break so the whole face of the pad is a stiff plate. Except the boot that might be flexible. Definitely this kind of pad might look weird at first and I really don't know if it would work at all. Just a vision of how I would try to improve things and get rid of options that don't give any benefits.

Modern goalies with almost 180 degree flare don't really need this S-curve at all and that is new trend, but I don't know if all the hobbying goalies will ever reach that sort of flare?

 

I think I understand you. I agree, it also seems to me that the break under the knee goes back to the old design of the pad, which was supposed to tightly "hug" the knee

a break directly in the bend of the knee IMO is not quite "in place" and will interfere with the bent knee (don't forget about the massive knee guards) in the butterfly

I understand your pad idea, but visualizing it mentally, I don't "see" it. with a straight knee part, with one line of the lower leg, the knee block will not stand at the right angle to the pad and you will land past it

I have an idea why they abandoned the bend above the knee, although it allows you to better close the 5th hole. because when the puck hits the instep of the thigh, with this form of pad, the rebound will be 99% in front of the goal, which 100% will lead to a finishing attempt. with the current shape of the pads with one bend under the knee, the rebound almost always goes to the side

but I can definitely say that your thoughts are definitely very logical.

why are they not implemented? it's hard for me to answer. we remember absolutely straight pads-boards. they didn't settle down. pads with solid knee block/shin guard. didn't spread either.

I believe that the development of pads, precisely in form, is very evolutionary, without abrupt new ideas that change the entire industry. as opposed to materials. I think the point here is the conservatism of both the producers themselves and the goalkeepers, especially those participating in the Show

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