Mask accessories discussion

[RichMan]

I'm looking for something specific but figured we could add lots more into the topic as it goes along.

The clips that hold your cage to your shell...I'm not crazy, I know there has to be different lengths of clips available, right? I swear I had some at some time. My Optimus cage (Anges Gardiens) is much more ample than my original cat-eye and I need 2 shorter clips so I can secure the bottom of the cage to the chin without having to bend and warp the regular size ones. Hardware stores or online somewhere? Anyone? 

[chile57]

McMaster - Carr I believe has these.

[TWI]

What's the deal with these Guardian Angel cages? Everytime they pop up on facebook there seems to be a very well thought out response (imo) that an unbendable cage is a bad idea. The owner basically responds with "nuh uh!" and apparently has done zero testing as to how they interact as a whole with the helmet. Personally, the physics behind it seems to indicate it's a bad idea, particularly as you go down in helmet quality and quality of materials. Any thoughts? 

[keeperton]

57 minutes ago, TWI said:

What's the deal with these Guardian Angel cages? Everytime they pop up on facebook there seems to be a very well thought out response (imo) that an unbendable cage is a bad idea. The owner basically responds with "nuh uh!" and apparently has done zero testing as to how they interact as a whole with the helmet. Personally, the physics behind it seems to indicate it's a bad idea, particularly as you go down in helmet quality and quality of materials. Any thoughts? 

"We will make the most rigid bridge! That's the safest possible design, surely."

I have this same joke-thought when I see people say mask shells should be as rigid as possible.

[ThatCarGuy]

Usually Goalieparts.com has some larger clips. I remember I had to get some for my Bauer when I switched to their heavy duty straight bar cage

Edited September 28, 2023 by ThatCarGuy

[RichMan]

2 hours ago, TWI said:

What's the deal with these Guardian Angel cages? Everytime they pop up on facebook there seems to be a very well thought out response (imo) that an unbendable cage is a bad idea. The owner basically responds with "nuh uh!" and apparently has done zero testing as to how they interact as a whole with the helmet. Personally, the physics behind it seems to indicate it's a bad idea, particularly as you go down in helmet quality and quality of materials. Any thoughts? 

The cages are custom built, one at a time for the customer. Mine was built for my Reidic. Being that the steel is thicker than your typical cage, there is a natural margin of adjustment needed. I wouldn't want a cage, no matter the brand, to be so soft that it would bend or break with a simple wrister. 

1 hour ago, keeperton said:

"We will make the most rigid bridge! That's the safest possible design, surely."

I have this same joke-thought when I see people say mask shells should be as rigid as possible.

A mask needs some give to help absorb some of the energy which then transfers to the foam. My Reidic has done its job well seeing that it's a high quality ABS shell.

4 minutes ago, ThatCarGuy said:

Unrelated but as important as mask construction and foams are it can never be said enough how important fit is. Many consider Warrior helmets to be lesser than Bauer 960s but I've never had a concussion in a Warrior even playing at a higher level and I have had a concussion in a 960XPM just playing high school hockey.

None of the retail manufacturers make a bad pro helmet anymore, it's a matter of what fits you best. 

I agree, fit is primary. My question here though is simply finding a short wrap clip to secure the lower part of the cage.

[keeperton]

45 minutes ago, RichMan said:

A mask needs some give to help absorb some of the energy which then transfers to the foam. My Reidic has done its job well seeing that it's a high quality ABS shell.

I know, I agree with this principle. People have been ragging on ABS since back in the day with NXI, and as far as I recall those were really decent masks.

[RichMan]

4 minutes ago, keeperton said:

I know, I agree with this principle. People have been ragging on ABS since back in the day with NXI, and as far as I recall those were really decent masks.

I think the basis of the riots were initially aimed at the widow maker, the Bauer 1200 which was honestly just a low quality plastic best suited for high level ball hockey. With the lack of information, this rage carried over onto NXi and Reidic. 

I believe Victory (the north american version of its European counterpart) also has ABS models.

[TWI]

17 hours ago, RichMan said:

The cages are custom built, one at a time for the customer. Mine was built for my Reidic. Being that the steel is thicker than your typical cage, there is a natural margin of adjustment needed. I wouldn't want a cage, no matter the brand, to be so soft that it would bend or break with a simple wrister. 

A mask needs some give to help absorb some of the energy which then transfers to the foam. My Reidic has done its job well seeing that it's a high quality ABS shell.

I agree, fit is primary. My question here though is simply finding a short wrap clip to secure the lower part of the cage.

I don't see how these thoughts are congruent with each other. A shot that hits super cage with enough force to bend a normal one (dissipating some energy) is passing more of the force to the helmet, foam, and wearer than the design intended. It's a bad design that is only taking one piece of a multiple piece setup into account. 

 

I don't know, I'm wary of anyone who makes safety equipment without a single ounce of testing or data to back up claims, or refute ones like these. 

[RichMan]

6 hours ago, TWI said:

I don't see how these thoughts are congruent with each other. A shot that hits super cage with enough force to bend a normal one (dissipating some energy) is passing more of the force to the helmet, foam, and wearer than the design intended. It's a bad design that is only taking one piece of a multiple piece setup into account. 

 

I don't know, I'm wary of anyone who makes safety equipment without a single ounce of testing or data to back up claims, or refute ones like these. 

Itech put out the 1200 aka Widow Maker as a senior ice hockey mask. You telling me they put worthy data to uphold its worth in safety? There are good product developers who can't afford the absurd amounts for testing data and certification and there are some that are very questionable despite the OK stamps of approval. 

It's just my opinion. 

[TWI]

14 hours ago, RichMan said:

Itech put out the 1200 aka Widow Maker as a senior ice hockey mask. You telling me they put worthy data to uphold its worth in safety? There are good product developers who can't afford the absurd amounts for testing data and certification and there are some that are very questionable despite the OK stamps of approval. 

It's just my opinion. 

Yea that’s true, but doesn’t relate to anything I said lol. Good luck with your super cage, I hope you never find out why an unbendable cage is a terrible idea. 
 

Separately, I’m well aware of the questionable masks that have passed official certification. 10+ years in the business will do that. One wouldn’t need to afford “absurd amounts” to do a basic testing of a product that they’re schilling as a superior protective device. But even worse than that, convos with the creator show a complete lack of knowledge of the ideas at play in designing a helmet, and why it’s done the way it is. So again, sincere good luck to you that you don’t discover why passing force into your helmet and head isn’t a smart trade for an occasional $100 cage replacement. 

[johncho]

I find this convo to be pretty funny, as it reminds me of an exact argument I had as a mechanic.

I used to work for a shop that rebuilt 60s-70s muscle cars, and one customer came in one day huffing and puffing that he had just gotten in a minor car accident the other day in his daily modern car which is now totalled and complaining on how these Japanese cars are all plastic and any little bump crumples them like a cheap lawn chair. “They don’t make ‘em like they used to!” Was a common phrase we heard from our customers. 

Well yeah, in the old cars the crumple zone was your legs, new cars which have proper give are able to dissipate the energy properly saving the occupants inside.

I asked him if he had any injuries from the crash, and he said no, but I think the question went over his head.

[RichMan]

@johncho You were a mechanic? Where have you been hiding man?!? lolll  

To get back on topic, I had a thought the other day...Why don't we see open mouth cat-eye cages in the Show or any of their sub-divisions? Is it a rule, or just not a popular choice?

[johncho]

On 11/10/2023 at 4:16 PM, RichMan said:

@johncho You were a mechanic? Where have you been hiding man?!? lolll  

Haha it was my previous life, I haven't spun a wrench in a loooooong time. But also, I rarely worked on cars, I mostly built race car engines.

[RichMan]

4 hours ago, johncho said:

Haha it was my previous life, I haven't spun a wrench in a loooooong time. But also, I rarely worked on cars, I mostly built race car engines.

That's still cool  

[RichMan]

My Bauer 940 straps already fraying after just a couple months

 

[SentryHockey]

For someone such as myself who's looked into the entire industry and done alot of research as to why mask companies dont do or release data as to how much shock is absorbed by the entire component ive realized they're all basically the same. With the exception of Kustom Komposites and Protechsport all companies lie and mislead the customer as to what they're actually getting which is why they're extremely vague in product description.

 

Testing data isnt released because really not one is safer than another. The idea that a rigid cage with thicker steel bars isnt safer is ridiculous. Would you rather have a cage where the weld broke and a piece flew into your face?

 

The shell itself and the foam used is the parts that are supposed to flex and dissipate the kinetic energy of the impact. Kevlar does this better, long term, over any other material. Innegra works better, at first, but then quickly stops working after repeated impacts. 

If someone is using a goalie helmet that's abs like the NXi it's going to flex too much and ring your bell...the cage isnt going to help. I've had a nxi for years. Same goes with any other mask that's made of cheaper materials like matte fiberglass. Problem is unless you start sanding it down and cutting into the shell as in the case for repairs you have no idea what is actually used despite a fancy sales pitch.

The Onezee guy is infamous for this. He told me repeatedly that "feel how strong this shell is, its stronger than chinese arithmetic". He was confusing stiffness with impact resistance. I promise you when that thing comes out, people will get nasty ringers because essentially your wearing a bell with a face opening and its 99% carbon fiber which is brittle and loud.

Long story short, the better made the cage the less of a chance that it's going to bend and/or break and hit your face. 

If your shell is mostly kevlar the shell will absorb the impact so you would have the best of both worlds.

[dreadlocked1]

On 2/21/2024 at 3:46 PM, RichMan said:

My Bauer 940 straps already fraying after just a couple months

 

Grab a lighter and hit it with some flame.  Gets rid of all the fuzz.

[Candyman]

Anyone know where I can find longer cage clips? I know they are around but can't seem to find any. I want to add a clear pvc tube around parts of my cage to protect my new paint and the stock clips end up being a bit too short. I've tried Nash and they are the same as my Sportmask in size, any other manufacturer make theirs a bit longer?

[RichMan]

56 minutes ago, Candyman said:

Anyone know where I can find longer cage clips? I know they are around but can't seem to find any. I want to add a clear pvc tube around parts of my cage to protect my new paint and the stock clips end up being a bit too short. I've tried Nash and they are the same as my Sportmask in size, any other manufacturer make theirs a bit longer?

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