2023 HHoF Goalies

[Fullright]

King Henrik is a slam dunk. Barrasso....never a fan (apparently a large type A-hole) but his record is great. Mike Vernon deserves it also. Little surprised Cujo didnt make it in.

Thoughts, comments?

[chile57]

Had this discussion with a buddy of mine...

No qualms with any of those that made it. Your Cujo point has merit as he carried a lot of mediocre teams (though he never won the big one on any stage which is always a ding). Was also fun to watch him on those Oiler teams that had no business pulling off some of the upsets they did and I believe he helped some of those Toronto teams tremendously (before unceremoniously being treated poorly in Detroit (in my opinion)). My question to my buddy was - if Barrasso and Vernon are in - how is Osgood not?

Barrasso - two Cups as a starter. Vernon - two Cups as the starter. Osgood - two Cups as a starter (and a third where he played the lions share in the regular season). The easy argument against Osgood is that he played on talented teams (duh - talented teams generally win) but the same caveat can be thrown at Barrasso (Pens were STACKED) and Vernie (check the 1989 Flames roster - no slouches). Osgood is the only one of the bunch to hit the hallowed 400 win mark. Seems that both Barrasso and Vernon got left in the dust as the rules/game changed and went out with a whimper whereas Osgood totally changed the way he played his game (and the type/style of equipment he wore) from 1998 to 2008 wins - which is crazy at the professional level when you think about it (or any level really outside of correcting mistakes as a youngster) and played fairly strongly until the end (believe an injury is what ultimately did him in as he did need to limp to the last couple of wins to reach 400). All of them were strong with multiple teams - Barrasso with Buffalo/Pitt, Vernie with Flames/Wings and Osgood with Wings/Islanders/Blues but of the bunch - seems like Osgood really became a difference maker on the Isles that he doesn't seem to get him much credit or dispel the "he won on good teams" argument (ahem - Grant Fuhr).

What am I missing? Or are all my points above delusional?

Edited June 25, 2023 by chile57

[chile57]

... I'll admit that stats can sometimes be deceiving but look at the top 25 in wins: https://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/records/nhl-goalies-all-time-wins-leaders.html...

Osgood beats both Barrasso and Vernon on wins as noted about but look at GAA, SP, losses and shutouts - he's outpacing them markedly in all categories (plus - he potted himself a goal to boot). Hell - even compare him to Roy's stats GAA/SP wise and things are pretty comparable. Make no mistake - I am not making a case to put Osgood in the same category as Roy (arguably the best money goalie of all time - 2002 Western Conference Finals Game 7 against the Wings notwithstanding) but they played mostly the same timeframe/duration - if Osgood was a workhorse like Roy he might even have quite a few more wins - Osgood 18 seasons and 744 games played - Roy at 19 and 1029.

I'm just not squaring with the lack of love/respect for Osgood (?).

Edited June 22, 2023 by chile57

[Puckstopper]

I may be a little biased here, but I've always been stunned that Ozzie doesn't at least get some discussion.  Multiple Cups on the resume, top 15 in wins, heck, the dude's even got the career Gordie Howe hat trick with the goal he scored and beating the tar out of Patrick Roy!  Prior to Vernon and Barrasso getting in, I didn't get too bent about Ozzie not getting looked at.  Given that those 2 guys are very much on Osgood's level (and personally, I think Cujo is better than all of them) I've got to think that Ozzie will get to start signing his autograph as "#30 HHoF" in the next few years.

[coopaloop1234]

Osgood suffers from playing behind a stacked team for most of his career. Dude was good, but did anyone ever pin him as a "difference maker" on those Wings teams? 

From a modern sense, it would be like whoever is currently playing for the Avalanche. They still need/want a good goalie, but they're such a strong team that they don't need to rely on their goalie to carry the workload like a lot of other teams. 

/shrug 

 

[chile57]

C’mon @coopaloop1234 that’s the low hanging fruit I already acknowledged in the argument. What about a comparison to the two recent inductees in Barrasso and Vernon - were they “difference makers” on their respective teams? At the very least I’m arguing all three are of the same ilk… and if you look at the stats - Osgood was better than both by a good margin. He also put up similar numbers with the Isles and Blues… who were not teams in the same spot in the league talent or record-wise as the Wings were at the time. Present me a counter argument that speaks to the points made not just “he was on good teams” if you want me to buy what your selling. 

To your point - I would argue he was a difference maker in 2008 based on the fact he replaced a flailing Hasek (a first ballot Hall of Famer by the way) early on - righting the ship to beat a hard charging Pens team. He was even better statistically the next year when they lost the Finals and was arguably the front runner for the Conn Smythe had the Wings not choked offensively in games six AND seven (a whopping one goal output each game). 

Edited June 29, 2023 by chile57

[mr_shifty1982]

Pass on Barrasso, came from a stacked team.  Just like Mogilny should have been in by now vs this year's inductees. Guy scored 76 in 77, and a cup winner. Had a great career. 

Edited June 25, 2023 by mr_shifty1982

[A.YOUNGoalie13]

Never saw Barrasso or Vernon coming. Its unreal that Cujo still isn‘t in. You can’t talk 90s without talking about him.

[RichMan]

Wait til Tommy Salo retires. Just wait...you'll see.

  

[chile57]

@mr_shifty1982 - I would absolutely agree that Mogilny should be in (and should have gotten in looong ago). Really the only knock you can find on him is that some say he wasn't a fantastic teammate. Who gives a rip? Neither was a guy like Michael Jordan. Dude was dominant (as you noted). 76 in 77 is R-I-D-I-C-U-L-O-U-S. Wasn't like he was a flash in the pan either - damn near averaged a goal every other game over the length of his career which evens out to nearly a career 40 goal scorer for the duration. There isn't even a "well but he was juiced" argument like there is in baseball. Real head scratcher if you ask me.

Edited June 26, 2023 by chile57

[chile57]

Still haven't really seen a compelling (counter)argument to my points above for Osgood being out. Lots of Hall of Famers played on good teams. Good teams = good players (unless you were an uber talented player that got drafted to a wildly mismanaged franchise... like Connor McDavid is trending).

[Fullright]

I suppose I am biased against forwards and a little against D-men but I put that all aside for Mogilny. What makes his career even more impressive and HHofF worthy is that he defected. He had no option but to excel and made good on his decision to book on the USSR. Heavens knows what happened to any relatives he left behind.

I also dont get this business that "since he didnt win a Cup, he doesnt belong". I dont see the legtitimacy of that point as a criterion to make it in. 

[chile57]

@mr_shifty1982 to play devil's advocate - Barrasso did make it to The Show as an eighteen year old keeper (and didn't fall off the map thereafter a la Blaine Lacher or Jim Carey or... (neither of which were 18 by my recollection either)). Also won the Calder Trophy... beating out the likes of Steve Yzerman.

Full disclosure - had to look this nugget up - but only one of three bodies to win the Calder and Vezina in the same year too.

Edited June 26, 2023 by chile57

[chile57]

@Fullright - in fairness - Mogilny won a Cup with New Jersey.

But I otherwise agree with you - there are plenty Hall of Famers where a Cup seems to "legitimize" them either to cross the theshold into the Hall or just their career overall. By the same token (unfortunately) there are those where NOT winning the Cup seems to de-legitimize them (unfairly). You shouldn't get dinged for loyalty to teams that are shit.

A couple examples in this thread in fact - I don't think anyone is talking Vernon/Barrasso for the Hall without their Cups. In the same vein - there are plenty of folks that say Cujo doesn't deserve in because he never won one. In fact - I'm fine with some getting bumps for turning it on when it counts the most at playoff time but you can't fault Cujo for lack of trying - he had some crazy performances in Edmonton. Hell - he was solid in Detroit (and got victimized by a red hot Calgary team). Plus... 454 wins!!!

Edited June 26, 2023 by chile57

[coopaloop1234]

On 6/23/2023 at 2:34 PM, chile57 said:

C’mon @coopaloop1234 that’s the low hanging fruit I already acknowledged in the argument. What about a comparison to the two recent inductees in Barrasso and Vernon - were they “difference makers” on their respective teams? At the very least I’m arguing all three are of the same ilk… and if you look at the stats - Osgood was better than both by a good margin. He also put up similar numbers with the Isles and Blues… who were not teams in the same spot in the league talent or record-wise as the Wings were at the time. Present me a counter argument that speaks to the points made not just “he was on good teams” if you want me to buy what your selling. 

Nah, you win. 

 

[chile57]

And here I thought you'd be game for an actual debate backed by FACTS.  I still love you @coopaloop1234 

I'm not even playing the homer card here - I just feel like he's being unfairly skipped (particularly in lieu of who did get in this year). Honestly - if you hit 400 wins with a good win percentage - it should be a no brainer. Speaks to skill and longevity. Like 600 goals. Or 3,000 hits and/or 500 homeruns in baseball.

30 minutes ago, coopaloop1234 said:

Nah, you win. 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by chile57

[coopaloop1234]

1 minute ago, chile57 said:

And here I thought you'd be game for an actual debate backed by FACTS.  I still love you @coopaloop1234 

I'm not even playing the homer card here - I just feel like he's being unfairly skipped (particularly in lieu of who did get in this year).

 

I think the problem here is that I don't have the energy to debate a topic I'm only loosely knowledgeable on. 

I know my limits when it comes to debating a rabid fan.  

[chile57]

Boo-boo double post. My bad.

Edited June 26, 2023 by chile57

[chile57]

Loosely knowledgeable??? Poppycock. I thought all of us on the internet were experts? 

I appreciate the deference but - I am really curious to see if others can conjure up an argument against. I don't aspire to argue for the sake of arguing and - unlike others on the internet - am more than willing to concede if the counterargument is better. I am a Wings fan but am not necessarily an Osgood fan. I thought they should have kept Vernon back when. Kind of felt akin to Vegas jettisoning Fleury - you shitcanned the guy that got you to the dance when he should have been afforded the opportunity to ride off into the sunset a hero. And I like to crunch numbers and that top 25 list was a bit of an eye opener to me (particulary that Roy comparison I made).

Plus Osgood was a total dick when I went to the Joe to play the alumni. Suck a fat one Wizard of Oz.

27 minutes ago, coopaloop1234 said:

I think the problem here is that I don't have the energy to debate a topic I'm only loosely knowledgeable on. 

I know my limits when it comes to debating a rabid fan.  

 

[MTH]

Does hockey have the 'WAR' stat like baseball? I think most of these goalies would have a high number considering that the game was different and we couldn't really name their backups on these teams. These guys played almost every game and were the names of the league for a long time.