To Profile or Not To Profile...

[daffy]

Hey guys,

Question on profiling.  I had always done a 30' or 28' profile with a forward pitch, shaving down front quarter of blade to keep me on balls of feet.

I put my new blades in and my guy suggested 24' in front, 28' in back.  He reasoned that I would have that forward lean when in stance but wouldn't stress out my legs when standing waiting for the play.  Anyway I went with my usual 7/16 sharpen and it felt like I was playing in cement.  They were super sharp making shuffling side to side almost impossible.  As I shuffled, it felt like I was back on my heals which of course did not go well.

So do I shave abit more off the front? Or do I get them resharpened maybe down to 1/2" first to see how that goes.  I'm thinking the overly sharp blades contributed to my being back on heels so maybe just a new sharpen would solve the problem but thought I'd get everyone's input.

Thanks

[Chenner29]

1 hour ago, daffy said:

Hey guys,

Question on profiling.  I had always done a 30' or 28' profile with a forward pitch, shaving down front quarter of blade to keep me on balls of feet.

I put my new blades in and my guy suggested 24' in front, 28' in back.  He reasoned that I would have that forward lean when in stance but wouldn't stress out my legs when standing waiting for the play.  Anyway I went with my usual 7/16 sharpen and it felt like I was playing in cement.  They were super sharp making shuffling side to side almost impossible.  As I shuffled, it felt like I was back on my heals which of course did not go well.

So do I shave abit more off the front? Or do I get them resharpened maybe down to 1/2" first to see how that goes.  I'm thinking the overly sharp blades contributed to my being back on heels so maybe just a new sharpen would solve the problem but thought I'd get everyone's input.

Thanks

A couple things -

• In my experience, a forward lean is typically achieved by sliding the profile template slightly back towards your heel.
• With a 24/28', there is actually slightly less blade contact to the ice than with a 28 or 30', so you should not have felt 'stuck' as you did.

So now some questions -

1. With your past profile, did you have them apply the 30 or 28' first, and then shave? 
2. Are you sure you got 7/16 or did he put you in something sharper? 
3. Did you get a forward pitch with the new profile?  IIRC the Prosharp 24/28' done on center blade already has a slight forward lean.

 

[daffy]

25 minutes ago, Chenner29 said:

A couple things -

• In my experience, a forward lean is typically achieved by sliding the profile template slightly back towards your heel.
• With a 24/28', there is actually slightly less blade contact to the ice than with a 28 or 30', so you should not have felt 'stuck' as you did.

So now some questions -

1. With your past profile, did you have them apply the 30 or 28' first, and then shave? 
2. Are you sure you got 7/16 or did he put you in something sharper? 
3. Did you get a forward pitch with the new profile?  IIRC the Prosharp 24/28' done on center blade already has a slight forward lean.

 

1.  Past profile was 28 or 30 first then shaved down front to give forward pitch.

2. Before changing to new blades, I took the old ones to this guy and asked for 7/16" which came out super sharp.  Went back to my usual guy right after and did 7/16" again.  Huge difference.  Could actually shuffle.

3.  24/28 radius no forward lean.  My guy said the shorter profile in front would already put me forward abit.  Suggested I try it but could come back and have front shaved alittle more.

Im thinking of just going to my other guy and doing 7/16 again as it made a big difference the last time.  I don't want shave more down if I don't have to.  2 big games coming up and don't want to suck out there.  Trying to get this right as soon as possible.

[Chenner29]

1 hour ago, daffy said:

1.  Past profile was 28 or 30 first then shaved down front to give forward pitch.

2. Before changing to new blades, I took the old ones to this guy and asked for 7/16" which came out super sharp.  Went back to my usual guy right after and did 7/16" again.  Huge difference.  Could actually shuffle.

3.  24/28 radius no forward lean.  My guy said the shorter profile in front would already put me forward abit.  Suggested I try it but could come back and have front shaved alittle more.

Im thinking of just going to my other guy and doing 7/16 again as it made a big difference the last time.  I don't want shave more down if I don't have to.  2 big games coming up and don't want to suck out there.  Trying to get this right as soon as possible.

Given your point 2, I'd say it's probably your sharpening. But it's strange to me that you're asking for the same cut at two different places and getting wildly different feel.

My concern really has to do with how your profiling guy does the work; if he's profiling first then adding the shave, how certain are you that the front portion of your blade retains that 28 or 30' radius?  Is he doing it by hand/eye, or using a template, and what type of machine is he working on?  Every skate tech I have talked to has told me that in order to to achieve forward lean, you slide the template back from center on the steel, you do not shave off the front.

Here's a visual to help provide context (although it's for a 10' vs 13' player radius)

[daffy]

I can't say for certain but I think it was by hand/eye.  That's why in this case he said go with 24' front.  Then guaranteed to know what you have.  

Not sure what he does after profile or cross grinding (like he did on my old set of blades) but after they are super sharp.

Thanks for the feedback.  Very helpful.  I think I'll get my usual guy to do the sharpen and give me an actual 7/16.  My usual guy doesn't do profiling but I like going to him as he is consistent.  Never a bad sharpen.  Will start there and then decide if I need to change pitch.  Much appreciated @Chenner29

[Chenner29]

2 hours ago, daffy said:

I can't say for certain but I think it was by hand/eye.  That's why in this case he said go with 24' front.  Then guaranteed to know what you have.  

Not sure what he does after profile or cross grinding (like he did on my old set of blades) but after they are super sharp.

Thanks for the feedback.  Very helpful.  I think I'll get my usual guy to do the sharpen and give me an actual 7/16.  My usual guy doesn't do profiling but I like going to him as he is consistent.  Never a bad sharpen.  Will start there and then decide if I need to change pitch.  Much appreciated @Chenner29

My guess is that he was shaving so much off the front, you might have ended up closer to a player profile (like 8' or 10')
Getting bumped up to a 24' front would drastically alter the amount of blade contacting the ice*, making your pivots/transitions much more difficult and it would feel like you have a ton more grip into the ice.

Maybe have your usual sharpener look at both blades to see what's going on, if he's seeing what I'm thinking, you may want to dial down to 1/2 or 9/16.
If you want to check yourself, put your new and old steel side by side.  Your new steel should look flatter than your old.

*I wanna say we can calculate the exact amount of inches/mm of blade contact using point of tangency; essentially the prescribed radius would increase or decrease the size of the circle below, but it doesn't take into consideration other factors (downforce, ice temp/conditions, etc)

[daffy]

1 hour ago, Chenner29 said:

My guess is that he was shaving so much off the front, you might have ended up closer to a player profile (like 8' or 10')
Getting bumped up to a 24' front would drastically alter the amount of blade contacting the ice*, making your pivots/transitions much more difficult and it would feel like you have a ton more grip into the ice.

Maybe have your usual sharpener look at both blades to see what's going on, if he's seeing what I'm thinking, you may want to dial down to 1/2 or 9/16.
If you want to check yourself, put your new and old steel side by side.  Your new steel should look flatter than your old.

*I wanna say we can calculate the exact amount of inches/mm of blade contact using point of tangency; essentially the prescribed radius would increase or decrease the size of the circle below, but it doesn't take into consideration other factors (downforce, ice temp/conditions, etc)

Thanks Chenner, I went to my usual guy and he said one edge was higher than the other and one area of the blade looked like it wasn't even sharpened.  So I'll start with a correct sharpening first and see how it goes tomorrow night. Good call to compare to the old steel.  I'll have to look at that as well.  Thanks again

[daffy]

Ok following up on my own post.  Need alittle help.  So went back to my usual guy and the sharpening is now good.  The 24/28 profile still puts me on my heels Abit.  I find if puck is in corner and passed to the slot when I challenge out, my toe are kinda pointed outwards and I'm back on heels.  Yes certainly my footwork needs well......work but I think some forward pitch would help.

So would I need to go to a 20 or 15 in the front to get that forward pitch then?

On another note, we play the top team in the league tomorrow night and I don't know what to do.  I wanted to see a new guy about profiling but he isn't in till next week. Here are my options:

A: take skates to get profiled from guy who did it the first time and risk a botched sharpening like he did last time.

B: use them as they are and fight through the game tomorrow and wait for new guy to get back to work and change profile next week.

go back to old blades for tomorrow which had better forward pitch but are worn down.  Then get new blades redone next week.

 

 

[CJ Boiss]

31 minutes ago, daffy said:

Ok following up on my own post.  Need alittle help.  So went back to my usual guy and the sharpening is now good.  The 24/28 profile still puts me on my heels Abit.  I find if puck is in corner and passed to the slot when I challenge out, my toe are kinda pointed outwards and I'm back on heels.  Yes certainly my footwork needs well......work but I think some forward pitch would help.

So would I need to go to a 20 or 15 in the front to get that forward pitch then?

On another note, we play the top team in the league tomorrow night and I don't know what to do.  I wanted to see a new guy about profiling but he isn't in till next week. Here are my options:

A: take skates to get profiled from guy who did it the first time and risk a botched sharpening like he did last time.

B: use them as they are and fight through the game tomorrow and wait for new guy to get back to work and change profile next week.

go back to old blades for tomorrow which had better forward pitch but are worn down.  Then get new blades redone next week.

 

 

Use whatever you're most comfortable with tomorrow night. Get your blades redone by someone you trust, even if that means waiting.

[daffy]

22 minutes ago, CJ Boiss said:

Use whatever you're most comfortable with tomorrow night. Get your blades redone by someone you trust, even if that means waiting.

That's what a friend of mine said too.  Definitely leaning that way.  Thanks

[DL42]

maybe the stance is wrong and causing u to be on the heels, there should be a slight forward lean. who know's without video .

maybe the skates are laced up wrong.

You can mail the skate blades to no-icing sports in new hampshire and get them back less then a week if in usa for profiling.

we live in a global economy no need to use local person.

no-icing being doing my blades for the last 6 years about 13 sets of blades and all sharpening in that time.

 

[daffy]

30 minutes ago, DL42 said:

maybe the stance is wrong and causing u to be on the heels, there should be a slight forward lean. who know's without video .

maybe the skates are laced up wrong.

You can mail the skate blades to no-icing sports in new hampshire and get them back less then a week if in usa for profiling.

we live in a global economy no need to use local person.

no-icing being doing my blades for the last 6 years about 13 sets of blades and all sharpening in that time.

 

Thanks DL42,

I know I have bad habits.  Just odd how this has started lately.  I looked the skates again today and there is a forward lean to them.  I think for tomorrow start small and get them sharpened with someone else just to see how it feels.  Then figure it out for next week.  

[Chenner29]

4 hours ago, daffy said:

Ok following up on my own post.  Need alittle help.  So went back to my usual guy and the sharpening is now good.  The 24/28 profile still puts me on my heels Abit.  I find if puck is in corner and passed to the slot when I challenge out, my toe are kinda pointed outwards and I'm back on heels.  Yes certainly my footwork needs well......work but I think some forward pitch would help.

So would I need to go to a 20 or 15 in the front to get that forward pitch then?

On another note, we play the top team in the league tomorrow night and I don't know what to do.  I wanted to see a new guy about profiling but he isn't in till next week. Here are my options:

A: take skates to get profiled from guy who did it the first time and risk a botched sharpening like he did last time.

B: use them as they are and fight through the game tomorrow and wait for new guy to get back to work and change profile next week.

go back to old blades for tomorrow which had better forward pitch but are worn down.  Then get new blades redone next week.

IIRC, the Prosharp 24/28 ("Goalie WIN") has a bit of forward lean cut into the template already

If you want a 15 or 20 in the front, you aren't increasing the lean, you are decreasing the amount of steel contact with the ice to make it easier to pivot while flat on both edges

You can get more forward lean on the steel by having the skate tech slide the template back from center in 1/4" increments, but you will still have 24' front and 28' back.  The difference is in how many lineal inches will have the 24' put into it versus the 28'

How are your body mechanics? I've noticed the few times when I take my kids out to public skate I am more on my heels because I am standing almost straight up.  When I get the gear on for my own skates and do my goalie things, I'm loaded more on the front.  Point being, it's easier to control your weight distribution on our edges as you bring your center of gravity lower down.

Any history of injuries recently?  Or excessively tight hamstrings/hips/ankles/back, etc?  Could also be a muscle imbalance - which can be caused by something as simple as sitting too much.

[DL42]

if u r using any radius cut the steel contact is a  pivot point,  u need to get a CAG profile flat spot if u want more contact on skate blade.

 

if u take the blade out of the skate and put it on a clean table, with a radius it will spin on the table,  do it with a CAG with a flat spot it will not, its locked in.

[daffy]

All good info.  Appreciate the input.

I don't think I'll change much yet.  Left hip has always been an issue so I think it might be more me subconsciously protecting it more than needing more pitch.  I hope thats all it is.  I'm going to be more conscious of my stance and getting weight placed right.  

In my mind my first thought is blades because this is new profile for me.  Maybe I just need more time to get comfortable.  So damn frustrating though!

[Chenner29]

Another question, have you checked to see if your blades are actually pitched the way you want them?

I've heard horror stories from my skate techs about botched jobs from others.  Completely uneven blades, backward rocker, etc etc etc.

[daffy]

21 minutes ago, Chenner29 said:

Another question, have you checked to see if your blades are actually pitched the way you want them?

I've heard horror stories from my skate techs about botched jobs from others.  Completely uneven blades, backward rocker, etc etc etc.

Hmm, will double check that as well.  Thanks!

[SaveByRichter35]

So how'd the game go, @daffy?

[daffy]

4 hours ago, SaveByRichter35 said:

So how'd the game go, @daffy?

Thanks for asking, playing tonight.  Got skates done by different guy.  I like good edges so hopefully that helps and my chiro said my left (problem side) hip was locked up so hopefully that makes a difference.  Will focus on being on balls of feet.  Bit nervous hope a few direct shots get me into the game and settle down.

 

[daffy]

12 hours ago, SaveByRichter35 said:

So how'd the game go, @daffy?

IT. WAS. TERRIBLE.  I went to the guy who profiled and he tends to put Abit more bite on the sharpening. Biggest mistake I could have done.  He totally botched them. One side was totally dull and the other was so sharp I couldnt move.  

I have a shop I want to go to but their guy who profiles is back next week.

 Popping in the old blades for a game on the weekend and then Monday will go see the new shop.

[SaveByRichter35]

13 hours ago, daffy said:

Thanks for asking, playing tonight.  Got skates done by different guy.  I like good edges so hopefully that helps and my chiro said my left (problem side) hip was locked up so hopefully that makes a difference.  Will focus on being on balls of feet.  Bit nervous hope a few direct shots get me into the game and settle down.

 

That always helps me too.  A few early shots to get into the game.

5 hours ago, daffy said:

IT. WAS. TERRIBLE.  I went to the guy who profiled and he tends to put Abit more bite on the sharpening. Biggest mistake I could have done.  He totally botched them. One side was totally dull and the other was so sharp I couldnt move.  

I have a shop I want to go to but their guy who profiles is back next week.

 Popping in the old blades for a game on the weekend and then Monday will go see the new shop.

Ah man that sucks.  I'm sorry to hear that.  

[Teezle]

7 hours ago, daffy said:

IT. WAS. TERRIBLE.  I went to the guy who profiled and he tends to put Abit more bite on the sharpening. Biggest mistake I could have done.  He totally botched them. One side was totally dull and the other was so sharp I couldnt move.  

I have a shop I want to go to but their guy who profiles is back next week.

 Popping in the old blades for a game on the weekend and then Monday will go see the new shop.

This is one of the reasons I've been highly considering getting a Sparx sharpener - the lack of consistency in sharpening where I live is awful.

[daffy]

1 hour ago, Teezle said:

This is one of the reasons I've been highly considering getting a Sparx sharpener - the lack of consistency in sharpening where I live is awful.

Totally agree!  Been eyeing one for awhile.

[Chenner29]

8 hours ago, daffy said:

IT. WAS. TERRIBLE.  I went to the guy who profiled and he tends to put Abit more bite on the sharpening. Biggest mistake I could have done.  He totally botched them. One side was totally dull and the other was so sharp I couldnt move.  

I have a shop I want to go to but their guy who profiles is back next week.

 Popping in the old blades for a game on the weekend and then Monday will go see the new shop.

IMO

If your profiling guy can't be bothered to check your edges after he sharpens, I've got some serious questions about his attention to detail and the quality of his profiling

[daffy]

6 minutes ago, Chenner29 said:

IMO

If your profiling guy can't be bothered to check your edges after he sharpens, I've got some serious questions about his attention to detail and the quality of his profiling

Totally agree!  Off to new guy next week.  Will never go back to this other guy.