New vs old skates

[Ericohen]

Back to playing again after 10 years in a beer league. Notice butterfly slides seem to help a lot, not something I’ve ever really done. My skates I bought are used to make everything affordable for now. However was wondering if there are suggestions on new skates from a discussion with another goalie with step steel versus he mentioned newer skates have a higher blade so it’s essentially the same thing. Not sure how old the skates are I bought used but they cost $20 so assuming old enough (and when looking at blade not as tall as his blade). Would anyone suggest step steel? Or just new pair of skates?

[RichMan]

Hey, if you're new, welcome to the crib. So you have played in the past, so you do have some experience and sense of things. How would you describe your game at the moment (excluding fitness or technical prowess)? How old are you? Are you flexible still? How serious are you in wanting to change your game? What is your goaltending objective(s)

It's a lot of questions but for good reasons, you'll see.

[Ericohen]

So far I feel after 4 games in I feel pretty comfortable. I’m in good shape both strength and flexibility wise. Have always been active and exercised and remained flexible. I’m just in a beer league but I’d love to learn new things to make myself better. For example when I played before butterfly style sliding was not a big technique used. If there is a 2-1 I’m moving more into a “split” or stretching my leg out to make the save only instead of pushing off and sliding and keeping the biggest part of my body in front of the puck and upright. It seems like something if I can learn it, it can make a big change to how I’m playing already. I think I feel comfortable for now but my skates are not sharp (I got a 1” cut on the skates before I started it’s what I used to get so I’m sure sharper skates will help). The other goalie we just played recommended steel step or newer skates to help with the push off to perform a proper butterfly slide. Appreciate your response and hopefully my answers help to give more info!

[Puckstopper]

What skates did you buy? 

[Ericohen]

A pair of used grafs. The model I don’t knkw. All I can say is I got used for 19.99....I’m sorry don’t have much more detail on the model.

[Ericohen]

Remember I got a 1” sharpen so they’re not sharp and I slide too much, that was my mistake and looking to see if the sharpness effects the push off as well. Just not sure what I can do skate wise to help with the butterfly slide whether it’s just sharpen blade, get a step steel blade or get new skates which are higher anyways, but with a better sharper edge maybe at 1/2” instead of 1

[Puckstopper]

No worries, knowing they're older Grafs tells me what I need to know.  Personally I'd plow the money you'd spend on new steel into new skates instead.  Cowlingless skates are a huge step forward from skates with cowlings in terms of being able to grab and edge and move while down. 

[Lucky Pucker]

Agree with @Puckstopper. For me, I only started playing 2-3 years ago (minus eleventy months of pandemic), but started with a cowlingless Bauer skate. It made the transition from player to goalie much easier for me. It will also allow for a better “attack angle” (lots available on that elsewhere with images etc). The other big difference is that you’ll have a 3mm blade vs what I assume is a 4mm blade in your Grafs. 
IIRC, you can get into the cowlingless game for ~$200...? And now that they’ve been around for a few years, you might even be able to pick up a used pair at a PIAS or something!

A small note as well; while they may not seem quite as protective as the old clunkers with hard white plastic all around, if you’re wearing pads from the last 10-15 years or so, and playing a more modern style, the feet are not going to be exposed as they would have been in yesteryear’s setup with the brown leather Cooper pads.

[Ericohen]

Thanks so much for the info everyone! @Lucky Pucker is there anywhere specific you suggest looking up the attack angles?

 

also does a sharper blade help as well? (I had 1” cut but am thinking 1/2” next before trying anything like a 3/8”)

[Lucky Pucker]

2 minutes ago, Ericohen said:

Thanks so much for the info everyone! @Lucky Pucker is there anywhere specific you suggest looking up the attack angles?

 

also does a sharper blade help as well? (I had 1” cut but am thinking 1/2” next before trying anything like a 3/8”)

It seems In Goal mag did something a while back, but this pic kinda helps illustrate the point.

For radius, that will be a helluva leap to go from 1” to 1/2”. Depending on your sharpening place, they can probably handle any/all in betweens. I settled into 9/16th. Fees right for me, but maybe try 5/8th...?

Again, it all worked well for me as I didn’t need to “undo” any old school habits or familiarity with old and dull 4mm blades.

And now for my ironclad legal disclaimer: YMMV

[Ericohen]

@Lucky Puckeri don’t knkw what that disclaimer means? Sorry. Thank you for advice! Great information I’m sure hoping it all helps. I told myself I’d buy used and buy new equipment as needed. I did buy new leg pads but everything else used from PIAS. I think getting a new pair of skates would be ideal since they were probably the oldest piece of equipment I got.

[RichMan]

3 hours ago, Ericohen said:

So far I feel after 4 games in I feel

pretty comfortable. I’m in good shape both strength and flexibility wise. Have always been active and exercised and remained flexible. I’m just in a beer league but I’d love to learn new things to make myself better. For example when I played before butterfly style sliding was not a big technique used. If there is a 2-1 I’m moving more into a “split” or stretching my leg out to make the save only instead of pushing off and sliding and keeping the biggest part of my body in front of the puck and upright. It seems like something if I can learn it, it can make a big change to how I’m playing already. I think I feel comfortable for now but my skates are not sharp (I got a 1” cut on the skates before I started it’s what I used to get so I’m sure sharper skates will help). The other goalie we just played recommended steel step or newer skates to help with the push off to perform a proper butterfly slide. Appreciate your response and hopefully my answers help to give more info!

Alright, what I can gather from your statement is the following:

I used to play like you do, hybrid/stand up, up until 2006, more of a Patrick Roy game in his Habs days. I started learning the butterfly slide and butterfly recovery and PLU (VH) and RVH and was able to slowly incorporate it into my game. So much so that my old game is less than 10% of what it was in my current game. With how the game is played today, my own game and approach became more intelligent and effective. If you choose to learn these newer techniques, you need to find a quality and patient instructor in your area to help with your development. Depending where you live, I might have some suggestions.

As for the skates and blades...I would steer away from Step blades and the likes until you've gotten comfortable with the newer techniques, and even then some, I would rather suggest you do the following: find a pro shop that has a very knowledgeable skate guy and talk shop with him, discuss what your trying to add and change in your game so he may come up with a proper profile and hollow for your personal objectives. For 30 + years I have always used the "goalie house cut" which means nothing special but the regular setting. I only recently have decided to change that for myself and get a professional opinion to get the proper sharpening I need to perform and coach the way i need. This decision was mostly influenced by watching and reading material posted on the web by Pasco Valana, great stuff. To get the extra clearance for your edges, you could have the shop help trim the cowling down on the inside toe a la Price to get you that extra 5% or more lean. FYI, Price is in Graf cowlings as well. For a 20$ skate bargain, it's not like trying something radical on a 600$ pair of skates, less painful loss if it doesn't work out the way you want it.

Maybe in a near future, when you are ready and comfortable with the new techniques, then you can spring on a new pair of no cowling skates and if you feel so bold, even test out some Step or Tydan blades. Time and effort will tell.

Be patient with this. You can add all the bells and whistles to your gear, buy the newest and most advanced gear, it won't do a thing for you if you don't have a proper handle on the fundamentals. You might look good as hell but come flat when game time.

What @Puckstopper and @Lucky Pucker wrote are fine suggestions and based on their own experiences, as is my own input above. 

Choose wisely Danielsan  

[Lucky Pucker]

1 minute ago, Ericohen said:

@Lucky Puckeri don’t knkw what that disclaimer means? Sorry. Thank you for advice! Great information I’m sure hoping it all helps. I told myself I’d buy used and buy new equipment as needed. I did buy new leg pads but everything else used from PIAS. I think getting a new pair of skates would be ideal since they were probably the oldest piece of equipment I got.

Oh, sorry - just wanted to emphasize that “Your Mileage May Vary” (YMMV). It worked for me, but might not for you

[Ericohen]

@Lucky Puckersorry

im a little slow hah thank you!

@RichMangreat suggestions. So I’m from New Jersey and actually have been playing in Atlantic City which is the closest rink that south in née jersey. Guess what, they do NOT have a pro shop. The closest pro shop is at rinks closer to Philadelphia and pure hockey in cherry Hill nj. That’s where I’m going to have to go so not sure how great the sharpeners are to work with me. But I’ll do my best to have a good discussion with one of them. I am planning to go this Sunday to either sharpen blades or was considering buying a pair of the no cowling skates. I can inquire about trimming cowling too.

@RichManis the cowling usually an issue to catching good ice to push from? Like can it limit the grip or touch ice causing blade to loose its edge? I was wondering if that’s the reason the cowling less skates are being made?

and I have been practicing the movements for the Motor pattern from the butterfly slides on and off ice. I don’t knkw of any coaches down here by me though.

[Chenner29]

6 hours ago, Ericohen said:

Back to playing again after 10 years in a beer league. Notice butterfly slides seem to help a lot, not something I’ve ever really done. My skates I bought are used to make everything affordable for now. However was wondering if there are suggestions on new skates from a discussion with another goalie with step steel versus he mentioned newer skates have a higher blade so it’s essentially the same thing. Not sure how old the skates are I bought used but they cost $20 so assuming old enough (and when looking at blade not as tall as his blade). Would anyone suggest step steel? Or just new pair of skates?

Okay so there is a lot to unpack her and I'll do it bit by bit

3 hours ago, Ericohen said:

A pair of used grafs. The model I don’t knkw. All I can say is I got used for 19.99....I’m sorry don’t have much more detail on the model.

 

3 hours ago, Puckstopper said:

No worries, knowing they're older Grafs tells me what I need to know.  Personally I'd plow the money you'd spend on new steel into new skates instead.  Cowlingless skates are a huge step forward from skates with cowlings in terms of being able to grab and edge and move while down. 

I'm guessing @Ericohen got  a pair of Graf 750s or 650s based on that price, I think steel on these was 4mm wide?  They do not come with removable steel unless the original owner upgraded the cowling.  I'd agree on splurging on new skates.

@Ericohen:

On top of being very subjective, dialing the steel in to what you like is very nuanced.

• 1" is very shallow for the modern game. 
  • If you go sharper -
    • Positive: Better butterfly pushes.
    • Negative: You will fatigue faster as you expend more energy to shuffle, C Cut, etc.
    • If you do go sharper, I'd recommend going up in small increments
• Your skates will feel sharper on the same sharpening if you -
  • Upgrade to a new pair:
    • Stiffer boot = more energy transfer down to your steel
    • Cowlingless = less flex under the boot
  • Profile (see below)

You will want to learn:

• Different types of steel available to you as they all have slightly different characteristics
  • DLC/Blacksteel
  • Stainless - note that not all stainless steel is the same. 
  • Typically, aftermarket steel manufactured steel has less carbon content than the stock manufacturer steel (ie. it is harder, holds up against nicks and chips better).  Good aftermarket brands mentioned a lot are Tydan, Step.  Bionic is mentioned sometimes too.
• And the different widths -
  • 3mm - weight savings, but the same cut will feel less sharp
  • 4mm - more stable
• Also familiarize yourself with profiling.  There is a lot you can do with your steel to customize it to how you want.
  • You can change the shape of your steel based on how much blade contact prefer.
    • Basic profiles include 30' (flatter, more steel touching) to 27' (more rounded, less steel touching) and so forth.  Manufacturer stock steel typically comes either 30' or 27'. 
      • I think players generally skate on 15' to 8' (?)
      • Flatter profiles = more steel contact with the ice = you can theoretically go with a slightly shallower cut
    • "Designer profiles" can put a different radius in separate zones of the blade:
      • Goalie SAM which has a 10' toe, 50mm flat spot in the center, and a 27' (?) rear.  You strategically use each zone based on your movement.
      • 24'/27' which means a 24' front of center and a 27' rear of center
      • These are the most common, there are some others too.
    • On top of this, you can try a CAG which is an engineered flat spot on your blade.
  • You can also pitch your steel, or slightly slant it forward depending on how you want your weight to sit when you skate (more on toes, balls of feet, or arch)

That's a brief (lol) overview.  Bottom line, keep working on your game, find what you like, talk to a good skate/sharpening guy and pick their brain.

[Colander]

All the guys here have great suggestions – I will add my 2 cents…..

Without having played a lot, it’s difficult to have an informed opinion as to what you like and don’t like, and more importantly, what will and won’t work for you.

It’s a different game for each person here and equipment works differently for different styles, strength, coordination and flexibility levels. What works for a 25 YO 6’3” goalie who’s been playing all their life, is very different for the 5’7” 60+ year old goalie that restarted after 20 years (It’ OK, I hear he tries hard).

The reality is that you will need to test out different types and styles of equipment to find out what does and doesn’t work. This can be expensive (welcome to goaltending), especially if you jump from one thing to the next quickly on minimal input.

I would suggest taking what you have and playing for a while and, as with your game, tweak one thing at a time (this is the patience @RichMan alluded to). With a bit of time in whatever your gear is, you can then speak more "quantifiably" – i.e. pants too short, CA doesn’t have enough protection in the forearms of too tight in the chest, pads feel too floppy or don’t slide well. From these statements others can offer informed input. Also it can probably be determined whether the problem is equipment or technique. A good example of that is say pad rotation. Many times the make of pad is blamed where really their dropping technique or strapping just needs a tweak.

It takes a little bit of time, but learning about the gear and what works for you is a bigger part of the game now than it has ever been

Have fun!

 

 

[Chenner29]

19 minutes ago, Ericohen said:

@Lucky Puckersorry

im a little slow hah thank you!

@RichMangreat suggestions. So I’m from New Jersey and actually have been playing in Atlantic City which is the closest rink that south in née jersey. Guess what, they do NOT have a pro shop. The closest pro shop is at rinks closer to Philadelphia and pure hockey in cherry Hill nj. That’s where I’m going to have to go so not sure how great the sharpeners are to work with me. But I’ll do my best to have a good discussion with one of them. I am planning to go this Sunday to either sharpen blades or was considering buying a pair of the no cowling skates. I can inquire about trimming cowling too.

@RichManis the cowling usually an issue to catching good ice to push from? Like can it limit the grip or touch ice causing blade to loose its edge? I was wondering if that’s the reason the cowling less skates are being made?

and I have been practicing the movements for the Motor pattern from the butterfly slides on and off ice. I don’t knkw of any coaches down here by me though.

Chain stores here in the US are pretty hit or miss in my experience - you have to find "the person" at that shop that consistently does a good job.  Otherwise, I recommend to go to a boutique shops or skate specialty shop to get a good sharpening.

How close are you to Pittsburgh?
https://www.binnieshockey.com/

New Hampshire?
https://www.noicingsports.com/skate

Is your steel removable?  You can send your steel to them.

Yes you can bottom out if your cowling hits the ice.  See @Lucky Pucker's skate comparison pic above

[Ericohen]

I need to read these posts later when I get a better chance but thank you all so much for your input! I can’t wait to read alL the info and help to make a better decision. You guys rock!

[RichMan]

5 hours ago, Ericohen said:

@RichManis the cowling usually an issue to catching good ice to push from? Like can it limit the grip or touch ice causing blade to loose its edge? I was wondering if that’s the reason the cowling less skates are being made?

In some way, yes the cowling can be a big factor, then again, proper technique is mutually if not more important. There are still some guys in the show wearing cowlings and doing well. Are they sporting taller blades? Can't say.

[CJ Boiss]

It's worth remembering that you can a better attack angle at the heel of your skate than at the toe.

I know some people will point out that you can't get a full extension through your ankle if you finish your push off the heel, and while they are correct most of your power should be coming through the extension of your leg, not your foot.

I've had scrambles around my crease where I can't freeze the puck, and I need to just barely keep my feet in case the puck squirts out to the side; engaging the heel of my blade lets me do that better than the toe. There are also times where I'm down in the butterfly and need to push over a bit to get my pad in front of the puck, and engaging my heel is a faster than engaging my toe.

[seagoal]

This discussion is great, super good info from @Chenner29

For sharpening, I would also recommend small increments, one step sharper at a time.  I sharpened my at 1/2 forever and was always pretty pleased with it.  I was not a very disciplined, passive, butterfly goalie for the longest time and played more of an aggressive, reactive, hybrid style. 

I wanted to change that about 2 or 3 years ago once I started getting into more modern gear, bungee toe laces, etc. I want to adapt and change to better utilize my gear.  I started attending goalie camps and clinics and given my goals in this one clinic, the instructor insisted that I sharpen my skates 1 step up, so from 1/2 to 7/16.  Once I did, my ability to do more technical, butterfly goalie stuff on my pads improved tremendously.  You'll start to notice once you get more comfortable and used to it that you'll want to make these little micro adjustments and changes and loads/pushes with your skates while down on your knees.  Sharper skates will allow those little micro adjustments to happen quicker and more effectively with more power and you need that power to be mobile.

I remember my first game with 7/16 after using 1/2 my whole life I tripped over myself when turning around to get water once and tripped yet another time when turning around in a corner after a whistle.  It was like I could do goalie things better but I felt a little clumsy doing more banal regular things.  It took a few games to get used to and now of course I don't notice because I am so used to it.

So be aware that the sharper you go, as Chenner said it's more fatiguing, but also it'll most likely make doing simple things a little clunky for a bit.

[Ericohen]

So first off thank you again to everyone who responded. I appreciate all your input. 
 

Since it’s hard to find a camp close by or a goalie coach close by does anyone have good links to a good instruction video for proper technique? I understand I can do whatever I want to my skates get new skates etc but technique comes first. I’ve found some YouTube videos that seem helpful but as I said when I’ve tried to push off from the ice my skates slide out from under me which is why I asked about skates sharpening, new skates without cowling.  I can possibly try a new cowlingless skate and sharpen it increments sharper and sharper as I get used to each one and see if going sharper gives me better grip.

 

 

[SaveByRichter35]

Lots of good info in here.  With two young kids in the house now I can no longer spend money freely on my gear.  Always trying to look for deals.  With that said, being you're so new to the game again it is tough to put you in a specific skate.  Should you stick with cowlings since that is what you used to use and it is what you know?  Should you just jump into cowlingless since you're still getting familiar with the game again anyway?  Why go to cowlings, get used to them, and then try to move on to cowlingless and have to get used to that all over again?  In my opinion you may as well try to get used to everything at once and get the awkward new gear stage over with all at the same time.

[jacksork]

Another option to keep an eye on is craigslist (and even stores like goodwill/salvation army/resource/restores as I have actually found usable stuff there as well). If you know your size then sidelineswap isn't a bad place to keep an eye on as well.

[Colander]

@jacksork indirectly brings up a good point. If you buy inexpensive used stuff, it's not as scary to start customizing* up some mods (i.e. trim a cowling back)

*or when I do it, hacking and slashing