Goalie Toe Caps

[TheGoalNet]

I know a lot of goalies are skeptical of True’s 1 holder for player and goalie. I’m wondering if this applies to toe caps. 
 

Graf has also advertised that their existing toe cap is thick enough that they don’t need goalie specific cap

So I’m wondering if people believe the goalie specific toe cap is required? 

if you’re Not aware, the the player skate brands do tremendous testing at 100mph to validate the toe caps are safe and don’t break and they don’t have a pad covering the skate 

[CJ Boiss]

I've taken shots off of my toe caps when I was skating out and never had an issue. I've never felt like I needed a cowling to keep my foot safe in net.

[Mroy31]

I guess I just appreciate that R&D effort was spent on designing a goalie specific toe cap because they didn't just say "well this is good enough" and thought "how can we design this for a specific purpose?" 

That being said, I'm not buying a goal skate just because they say their toe cap is new and improved, and it's also probably not a tiebreaker either. 

[TheGoalNet]

8 hours ago, Mroy31 said:

I guess I just appreciate that R&D effort was spent on designing a goalie specific toe cap because they didn't just say "well this is good enough" and thought "how can we design this for a specific purpose?" 

That being said, I'm not buying a goal skate just because they say their toe cap is new and improved, and it's also probably not a tiebreaker either. 

The reason I ask is that it could take an engineer X time to design a goalie toe cap. The toe cap is only 5% (example number) safer, but reduces the attack angle by 5% vs a smaller toe cap. It's also heavier than a traditional toe cap.

So does the performance outweigh the additional safety? Plus, there is the opportunity cost of an engineer's time on a non impactful piece of equipment.

[Teezle]

I've taken some heavy shots and one-timers off the toes of my True 2-piece skates and haven't felt anything that would make me think they're not protective enough. On the other hand, CCM specifically redesigned their goalie toe cap for the FT2 and one-piece AS1 skates because the original version with the "attack cowling" was not protective enough for it being exposed in the new skates.

[TheGoalNet]

39 minutes ago, Teezle said:

I've taken some heavy shots and one-timers off the toes of my True 2-piece skates and haven't felt anything that would make me think they're not protective enough. On the other hand, CCM specifically redesigned their goalie toe cap for the FT2 and one-piece AS1 skates because the original version with the "attack cowling" was not protective enough for it being exposed in the new skates.

I believe those were all goalie specific though.  If player skate toe caps are safe enough to take a Shea Weber bomb without a goalie pad over it, why do goalies need specific toe caps? I am just posing the question because I think we have been conditioned to think we need them and I question if we do. I also imagine we will see more skate design consolidation between player and goalie.

I believe CCM's quarters are the same between player and goalie, True only has 1 holder, etc etc

[Teezle]

1 hour ago, TheGoalNet said:

I believe those were all goalie specific though.  If player skate toe caps are safe enough to take a Shea Weber bomb without a goalie pad over it, why do goalies need specific toe caps? I am just posing the question because I think we have been conditioned to think we need them and I question if we do. I also imagine we will see more skate design consolidation between player and goalie.

I believe CCM's quarters are the same between player and goalie, True only has 1 holder, etc etc

One thing to think about for the difference is the angle at which a shot is likely to impact the toe cap. For players, it is probably on the side of the foot (going from how we see most NHL players assume the "shot blocking" stance):

In contrast, if a goalie takes a shot off the toe cap, it is most likely going to impact on the front of the toe or on top of the toes (think of the leading leg sliding over on a 2-on-1 pass and how we extend our leg/foot to get the most coverage possible). So it would make sense to me to design them differently based on the different areas a player vs. a goalie is likely to need the most protection.

[goalieThreeOne]

I suppose my take on it is not to compare the safety of a toe cap (when comparing goalie to player) on a per incident basis, but rather on a repeated incident basis.

Take motorcycle helmets, for instance. Incredibly protective, but once you use it once, it's toast.

Obviously that's an extreme example but that kind of bring me back to my point which is that it's pretty easy to make something hold up to an impact once, and becomes increasingly hard to make it hold up time after time after time.

When comparing player vs goalie toe cap designs, which of the two is going to be taking the most punishment. Now, you mentioned having a pad in front of it, but my boot doesn't really cover the front of the toe cap. And my toe cap is even more exposed when I'm in the butterfly. I still think you have to pay attention to protection in that area.

If Bauer or CCM, with heir massive R&D budgets comes to the conclusion that it's better to have a goalie specific design, even if it's just for an added margin of safety, I'm gonna pay attention. I'm not saying True or Graf are wrong, but I'd like to see the data.

On a related note, has anybody ever had their goalie toe cap break off a shot?

[goalieThreeOne]

1 hour ago, TheGoalNet said:

I believe those were all goalie specific though.  If player skate toe caps are safe enough to take a Shea Weber bomb without a goalie pad over it, why do goalies need specific toe caps? I am just posing the question because I think we have been conditioned to think we need them and I question if we do. I also imagine we will see more skate design consolidation between player and goalie.

I believe CCM's quarters are the same between player and goalie, True only has 1 holder, etc etc

Shea Weber is a bad example, because he's broken at least two player feet with his slapper (Nystrom and Tootoo). I don't see that he's broken any goalie feet, just Crawford, Osgood, and Andersen's masks.

[ThatCarGuy]

Somewhat related to this, the front of my skates are pretty beat up. The plastic around where the screw is on my One80 cowlings has chipped, cracked and bent in from shots. That’s how the skates arrived after Elliott was done with them. 

[Naz]

1 hour ago, goalieThreeOne said:

I suppose my take on it is not to compare the safety of a toe cap (when comparing goalie to player) on a per incident basis, but rather on a repeated incident basis.

This.

[TheGoalNet]

9 hours ago, goalieThreeOne said:

Shea Weber is a bad example, because he's broken at least two player feet with his slapper (Nystrom and Tootoo). I don't see that he's broken any goalie feet, just Crawford, Osgood, and Andersen's masks.

Yes, but did the toe cap completely shatter? And yes, his shot is an outlier, but I think it highlights the point.

9 hours ago, goalieThreeOne said:

When comparing player vs goalie toe cap designs, which of the two is going to be taking the most punishment. Now, you mentioned having a pad in front of it, but my boot doesn't really cover the front of the toe cap. And my toe cap is even more exposed when I'm in the butterfly. I still think you have to pay attention to protection in that area.

If Bauer or CCM, with heir massive R&D budgets comes to the conclusion that it's better to have a goalie specific design, even if it's just for an added margin of safety, I'm gonna pay attention. I'm not saying True or Graf are wrong, but I'd like to see the data.

On a related note, has anybody ever had their goalie toe cap break off a shot?

I don't know about you, but I rarely take a solid shot square off the toe with my pad out of the way? I know it's possible and it happens, but I don't think it's actually a high frequency scenario. If anything the RVH and post integration does the most damage to my toe caps.

Bauer and CCM started with goalie specific toe caps, but I am wondering how long they stick around? The market has clearly accepted the no cowling design. Are we now ready for a lighter and more streamlined toe cap...Is the goalie specific toe cap placebo or distinct benefit? Maybe as time goes on the goalie specific toe cap will be dropped in the name of attack angle and weight reduction

10 hours ago, Teezle said:

One thing to think about for the difference is the angle at which a shot is likely to impact the toe cap. For players, it is probably on the side of the foot (going from how we see most NHL players assume the "shot blocking" stance):

In contrast, if a goalie takes a shot off the toe cap, it is most likely going to impact on the front of the toe or on top of the toes (think of the leading leg sliding over on a 2-on-1 pass and how we extend our leg/foot to get the most coverage possible). So it would make sense to me to design them differently based on the different areas a player vs. a goalie is likely to need the most protection.

This is not how the toe caps are tested in a lap setting though. Player toe caps all pass 100mph slap shots from like 2-3 away. It's a direct shot.

[CJ Boiss]

1 hour ago, TheGoalNet said:

Bauer and CCM started with goalie specific toe caps, but I am wondering how long they stick around? The market has clearly accepted the no cowling design. Are we now ready for a lighter and more streamlined toe cap...Is the goalie specific toe cap placebo or distinct benefit? Maybe as time goes on the goalie specific toe cap will be dropped in the name of attack angle and weight reduction

I don't really see why Bauer and CCM would do away with goalie specific toe caps, unless they really need to reduce costs somehow and think cutting that bit of R&D from their goalie skates will save them money. How much attack angle would you gain by using a player toe cap over a goalie toe cap, and what kind of performance benefit would you gain by shaving off a tiny amount of weight from the toe of your skate (especially considering our point of balance, the ball of our foot, is no more than a few inches from the toe of our boot)?

If a goalie toe cap is the difference between not feeling a slap shot, and having your toes go numb from the impact (though not necessarily hurt in any way), then the goalie toe cap is definitely worthwhile.

[goalieThreeOne]

12 hours ago, TheGoalNet said:

I don't know about you, but I rarely take a solid shot square off the toe with my pad out of the way? I know it's possible and it happens, but I don't think it's actually a high frequency scenario. If anything the RVH and post integration does the most damage to my toe caps.

I find myself making a limited amount of saves off my toe cap. Usually when I'm extending my pad in the butterfly, I end up kicking the puck with my toe cap. Not often, but ti does happen.

[Mroy31]

14 minutes ago, goalieThreeOne said:

I find myself making a limited amount of saves off my toe cap. Usually when I'm extending my pad in the butterfly, I end up kicking the puck with my toe cap. Not often, but ti does happen.

Especially with bungee toe ties and no boot straps, skates extend past pads a lot more nowadays. With that and general increased friction against the ice vs what a player toe cap experiences, I think there's still a purpose to designing a goalie toe cap. 

That doesn't mean that eventually the two designs don't end up becoming one, just glad that companies are at least going through the steps of finding that out. 

[goalieThreeOne]

2 hours ago, Mroy31 said:

Especially with bungee toe ties and no boot straps, skates extend past pads a lot more nowadays. With that and general increased friction against the ice vs what a player toe cap experiences, I think there's still a purpose to designing a goalie toe cap. 

That doesn't mean that eventually the two designs don't end up becoming one, just glad that companies are at least going through the steps of finding that out. 

I'm sitting here comparing my 2s Pro goalie skates with my 1x 2.0 player skates and there's really not a whole lot of exterior difference, The goalie cap is a bit wider and flatter. And some molding that may or may not be aesthetic. 

[SaveByRichter35]

8 hours ago, goalieThreeOne said:

I find myself making a limited amount of saves off my toe cap. Usually when I'm extending my pad in the butterfly, I end up kicking the puck with my toe cap. Not often, but ti does happen.

I actually make quite a few saves off the toe of my right skate.  Its usually because I am off my angle to my left and I am reaching back to my right and catch it off the toe with a kick save.  I don't recall taking much off my left though.