The lacrosse goal: ban it?

[bunnyman666]

46 minutes ago, coopaloop1234 said:

 

Just be thankful we have some goalies willing to put colour on their pads as we slowly buck this "all white" trend.

How about not making goalies replace gear when it has a few marks on it? I love marked up white gear!

[coopaloop1234]

2 minutes ago, bunnyman666 said:

How about not making goalies replace gear when it has a few marks on it? I love marked up white gear!

Pretty sure no one's forcing goalies to replace their gear, they just like to.

[bunnyman666]

1 hour ago, coopaloop1234 said:

Pretty sure no one's forcing goalies to replace their gear, they just like to.

Maybe not. It’s just weird that less than 20 years back, you regularly saw guys with ancient gear, players with (sometimes crudely) painted helmets and stuff so full of stitches that it wasn’t funny. Player gloves are regularly being replaced the second they look a bit worn.  Practise jerseys are even not being patched all that often, though I have a Niemi practise sweater that has a few stitches and visible board burns. Now, it seems that there are sets of pads curated from each period of the Stanley Cup being sold by the teams in auctions or donated to the HOF. Irbe was definitely an extreme case, but looking at sports cards and pics from the 90s, you saw visible patching on the gear. A pair of Lehtonen pads I own aren’t all that marked up. 
 
I dressed with a recent former pro a few weeks back. His breezers, helmet and gloves looked relatively new, but his shin pads rivaled Craig Ludwig’s for most spread and worn out, and his elbow pads were three sizes too small and had the Cooper brand mark. His shoulder pads were a pair of Flak, which I haven’t seen those in 30 years! It took a roll of tape to put him together!  And he was wearing his Parkway West sweater from high school! And his gear was super stinky! I guess what I am saying is that I surmise there is some pressure from the league to not have super worn out stuff that can be seen as you don’t even see any Krylon on stuff these days and the helmets shine like polished jewellery. I am assuming that the goalies are being pressured the same way to a degree. 

 

[coopaloop1234]

5 minutes ago, bunnyman666 said:

I am assuming that the goalies are being pressured the same way to a degree.

Oh no Mr. NHL owner, please don't make me get new gear at your expense.

Jokes aside, I'm fairly certain that most of these guys like the crispness of new gear. Hell, Schneider was well known for routinely getting new pads/gloves throughout the year because he liked the rigidness of new Vaughn velocity gear and hated when they got soft.

Which is kind of an interesting scenario lol.

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by coopaloop1234

[bunnyman666]

29 minutes ago, coopaloop1234 said:

Oh no Mr. NHL owner, please don't make me get new gear at your expense.

There is that. But they pay far less than we do, as there is no warranty and the sheer volume. I am saying the pressure is from the league.  
 
There is something to be said for the crispness of new gear.

Edited December 14, 2021 by bunnyman666

[Scythe]

Did anyone see Bobrovsky's snow white gear in last Sunday's game? Put on your sunglasses. 

[seagoal]

1 hour ago, bunnyman666 said:

There is that. But they pay far less than we do, as there is no warranty and the sheer volume. I am saying the pressure is from the league.  
 
There is something to be said for the crispness of new gear.

Are you speculating or do you know this?  I've always wondered about this. It would seem given the volume and the source, it would make just as much sense for the manufacturers to charge the full amount because there is zero reason not to with the pros, who can afford as much as they want/need, afterall.

Giving discounts to pros is turning down guaranteed money.

Edited December 14, 2021 by seagoal

[coopaloop1234]

29 minutes ago, seagoal said:

Are you speculating or do you know this?  I've always wondered about this. It would seem given the volume and the source, it would make just as much sense for the manufacturers to charge the full amount because there is zero reason not to with the pros, who can afford as much as they want/need, afterall.

Giving discounts to pros is turning down guaranteed money.

You don't think that Carey Price paid for any of his CCM gear do you?

I think it really depends on the price of equipment, team allowances, sponsors, star power, and which league it is.

A lot of these companies will be willing to part with a few grand worth of sticks a year if it means that they get the league's stars to use them regularly. At that point they become an advertising expense and that directly turns into an increase in general revenue.

Then you come across league/team deals like we've seen in the CHL and NCAA. CHL used to be CCM only and every goalie/player were forced to use their gear for a period of time.

https://ontariohockeyleague.com/the-chl-and-the-hockey-company-announce-agreement/

Obviously I don't know the details, but I can't imagine that CCM was selling all of this gear at the typical retail price point.

Same thing happens in the NCAA:

https://nuhuskies.com/news/2021/6/9/athletics-northeastern-inks-four-year-deal-with-ccm.aspx

These gear suppliers are obviously making sure their costs are met and potentially there's a small margin on all of these sales, but I can't imagine they're raking these teams over the coals through these partnerships.

Edited December 14, 2021 by coopaloop1234

[bunnyman666]

38 minutes ago, seagoal said:

Are you speculating or do you know this?  I've always wondered about this. It would seem given the volume and the source, it would make just as much sense for the manufacturers to charge the full amount because there is zero reason not to with the pros, who can afford as much as they want/need, afterall.

Giving discounts to pros is turning down guaranteed money.

I actually know it.

What you have to remember is that they are supplying to the league to get you and I into their gear. The retail part of pricing is eliminated. Warranty is one of the biggest costs figured into pricing. There is no warranty on pro stock gear. The gear companies are still making enough money to make it worthwhile, as they are not charities when it comes to the pros. The companies also pay a fee to the league for logos to appear. Some sports leagues have fees that are paid to the teams in order to even be an option for a player to choose that piece of gear. What you need to remember, as well, is that the pros are a big part of R&D. Most bugs are worked out in gear supplied to the pros. I also don’t think that sporting goods stores sell to the pros like they did in the old days. 
 
 

Edited December 14, 2021 by bunnyman666

[bunnyman666]

3 minutes ago, coopaloop1234 said:

You don't think that Carey Price paid for any of his CCM gear do you?

I think it really depends on the price of equipment, team allowances, sponsors, star power, and which league it is.

A lot of these companies will be willing to part with a few grand worth of sticks a year if it means that they get the league's stars to use them regularly. At that point they become an advertising expense and that directly turns into an increase in general revenue.

Then you come across league/team deals like we've seen in the CHL and NCAA. CHL used to be CCM only and every goalie/player were forced to use their gear for a period of time.

https://ontariohockeyleague.com/the-chl-and-the-hockey-company-announce-agreement/

Obviously I don't know the details, but I can't imagine that CCM was selling all of this gear at the typical retail price point.

Same thing happens in the NCAA:

https://nuhuskies.com/news/2021/6/9/athletics-northeastern-inks-four-year-deal-with-ccm.aspx

These gear suppliers are obviously making sure their costs are met and potentially there's a small margin on all of these sales, but I can't imagine they're raking these teams over the coals through these partnerships.

Take away that warranty and the cost goes down SIGNIFICANTLY. Pro stock has NO WARRANTY. That was the biggest part of my pricing on my bikes and parts was figuring in the warranty costs to repair or replace. I also supplied a few people with no warranty products, with no labelling, second quality finishing and it was significantly cheaper. The rider in question would many times put a brand (who sponsored them) onto said item. 

[seagoal]

@coopaloop1234 and @bunnyman666  yeah, that makes perfect sense.  I didn't think about the warranty and retail upcharges.

And no, LOL, I don't think Carey Price or Montreal pays for his gear.  He is the most famous goalie in the world and one of the most famous outside of Canada, too   But I do think, say, that Luukkonen or the Sabres pays for his gear.

For sure star power matters and exposure is probably the best investment a gear company can make outside of r&d.

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by seagoal

[bunnyman666]

29 minutes ago, seagoal said:

@coopaloop1234 and @bunnyman666  yeah, that makes perfect sense.  I didn't think about the warranty and retail upcharges.

And no, LOL, I don't think Carey Price or Montreal pays for his gear.  He the most famous goalie in the world and one of the most famous outside of Canada, too   But I do think, say, that Luukkonen or the Sabres pays for his gear.

For sure star power matters and exposure is probably the best investment a gear company can make outside of r&d.

 

Lundy WAS the R&D for the OD1N tech for Bauer. If anyone is going to be the best field testing for R&D, it is someone who plays for a living. Labs only do so much. You have to make certain it’s safe in a lab, but field testing is KEY.

 I was lucky to be able to have access to some of the best and brightest testing my stuff. Of course the prototypes were disguised. Most were very gracious yet were unafraid to tell me what needs to be there, what needs to be gone, and were EXTREMELY helpful. 
 
Having pro athletes in your stuff is VERY much an asset!

[MTH]

I buy my kids pro stock sticks. I'm getting pretty good at deciphering the CCM and Bauer codes on a pro stick to determine what it actually is. But the sticks are less than 1/2 retail on SS (Around $130). So I assume the original purchaser (team), is paying roughly $50-$100 per player stick that retails for around $300.

No warranty of course. But for some gear, the retail warranty is short. So why bother?

I would think there would be tons of protective equipment out on the secondary market. Like others said, players change gloves weekly, goalies are in new gear almost every third game. Where does all the "old" stuff go? Minors? Back to the vendor and resold to lower ranks?

[coopaloop1234]

2 minutes ago, MTH said:

 Where does all the "old" stuff go? Minors? Back to the vendor and resold to lower ranks?

A lot of teams will have year end gear sales where the common folk can grab game used gear for exorbitant prices.

 

[MTH]

2 hours ago, coopaloop1234 said:

A lot of teams will have year end gear sales where the common folk can grab game used gear for exorbitant prices.

 

But you'd expect there to be mountains of used player gloves, a forest of used sticks, etc. But there never is. 

Sending NHL "used" gear down the ranks isn't bad. Then again, the minor teams all get their own gear too.

[bunnyman666]

1 hour ago, MTH said:

But you'd expect there to be mountains of used player gloves, a forest of used sticks, etc. But there never is. 

Sending NHL "used" gear down the ranks isn't bad. Then again, the minor teams all get their own gear too.

NJ Devils used to do that. They were notorious for sending down everything and by the time it got to the third tier, it was stinky and full of stitches.

[creasecollector]

I know that some players in the NHL do get a "mini" endorsement from companies, where their gear allowance will be $5000-$10,000 grand higher than other players on their team, for example.

This helps save the team money and get more brand recognition for the gear manufacturer, plus it keeps the player happy. Win-win. 

Source: I know someone playing in the NHL

Edited December 17, 2021 by creasecollector

[TheGoalNet]

Love the lacrosse goal, as long as there is not risk of a high sticking injury, I am in on this

Great for the sport

[seagoal]

Good stuff here from Steve McKichan on how to defend "the goofy stuff."

 

[seagoal]

More defending the "goofy stuff."  No way these goals ever happen again.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CYXS73YpoTl/

[Fullright]

Watch out, guys. The standup approach is coming back.  (joke)

I think it was said above, there are two other elements factoring into this. I think the players are really much more skilled than in the dark ages and a goal like that would have been considered bad form likely resulting in a fight. Even though I hate it personally, if a skater can pull it off, why not? 

[bunnyman666]

On 1/5/2022 at 5:30 PM, Fullright said:

Watch out, guys. The standup approach is coming back.  (joke)

I think it was said above, there are two other elements factoring into this. I think the players are really much more skilled than in the dark ages and a goal like that would have been considered bad form likely resulting in a fight. Even though I hate it personally, if a skater can pull it off, why not? 

It may sound like a joke that stand up could come back, but when I play stand up against younger player, they can be flabbergasted. I am actually a firmly hybrid goalie. RVH tends to burn me, anyway.

[MTH]

OK Boomer. Nice skate save.

[Fullright]

21 hours ago, MTH said:

OK Boomer. Nice skate save.

That is awesome, MTH! Well done, good Sir, well done.

[seagoal]

The Russian standup video made its way to my hockey team text thread and we were all laughing and discussin.

I mentioned for the first time with my team that I had started this thread years ago and have been discussing lacrosse goals in hockey with a bunch of goalies.  I presented a very condensed, bullet point version of my argument to ban them and how I would go about it, establishing something akin to "traveling" in basketball.  

It was a very unpopular argument, as it is on here, but a response from one of my teammates stole the show:

"So what do you propose next, we have to ask the goalie's permission before we score?"

To which I burst out laughing, gave up, and just said: "That's it, you won the debate."

So. Good.