The lacrosse goal: ban it?

[seagoal]

And we have another . Lots of distance traveled this time.  

[bunnyman666]

16 minutes ago, seagoal said:

And we have another . Lots of distance traveled this time.  

Sweaty Messy Hamburgers, er, um SMH  

[seagoal]

This is the first glove hand one I remember seeing.

[dreadlocked1]

Easier said than done, but if he had just sealed the post with his body and head instead of reaching up at it, I think he could have stopped it.

[CJ Boiss]

1 hour ago, dreadlocked1 said:

Easier said than done, but if he had just sealed the post with his body and head instead of reaching up at it, I think he could have stopped it.

Smith saw what was happening, but too late. No time to get his body across, glove was the best he could do.

[WillyGrips13]

Pretty impressive goal.

[RichMan]

I've faced the lacrosse shot on a few occasions and now know how to handle it.

My 2cents: I'd rather see a limit imposed on stick flex for players to avoid being injured by what we can't see coming, ie Webber and company.

You want real shooting power, look back at Al Iafrate. 105mph with a wooden stick

[GoalieDad64]

Ok goalies.  My 14 year old son, who played great all week during the Esso Minor Hockey Week tournament was burned by a lacrosse goal half way through the third period breaking the 0-0 tie during the Gold Medal Final game.  Needless to say, the team was deflated and couldn’t muster what they needed to tie it up.  Very sad way to end a hockey game and gold medal game!

Sadly it was a defenseman error that really resulted in the goal.  The defenseman was more interested in watching what the lacrosse player was doing rather than knocking him on his butt!  But really, what can a young goalie do about stopping this cheap shot, when so far, NHL goalies have been 0 for 3 attempts?

Edited January 24, 2020 by GoalieDad64

[Almost Hip]

Really there isn't much they can do other than try and recognize and anticipate when an attempt may be made and react to it.  It will be used more commonly now but still less than a full wrap around or pass out.

I haven't noticed it in my end but I did see a chance at the other end when I thought my player might try it as he had the time and space.  I asked him between periods and yes he thought about it but didn't think he could pull it off.    Us beer leaguers may not have the practice time to play around and practice those moves as much as the minor hockey kids where all the good players will have that in their bag of tricks just like they all have the between the legs  shot now too

[seagoal]

11 hours ago, GoalieDad64 said:

Ok goalies.  My 14 year old son, who played great all week during the Esso Minor Hockey Week tournament was burned by a lacrosse goal half way through the third period breaking the 0-0 tie during the Gold Medal Final game.  Needless to say, the team was deflated and couldn’t muster what they needed to tie it up.  Very sad way to end a hockey game and gold medal game!

Sadly it was a defenseman error that really resulted in the goal.  The defenseman was more interested in watching what the lacrosse player was doing rather than knocking him on his butt!  But really, what can a young goalie do about stopping this cheap shot, when so far, NHL goalies have been 0 for 3 attempts?

There's nothing a goalie can do to properly defend it other than stand straight up and up against the post.  There is 0% it goes in if we do that.  But otherwise, it's an absure hockey play and there's not much to be done...or said...about it from a goalie's perspective. 

I've argued that should be  banned as follows:

1. skaters are not allowed to skate with the puck on the blade of their stick

2.  the lacrosse goal involved a skater skating with the puck on the blade of their stick

3. the lacrosse is not allowed

----------------------------------------------------------

4. the lacrosse should be banned

I did so vaguely remembering a scenario in the NHL where a player did just just - skated with the puck at center ice with the puck on his blade - and was called for delay of game.  But I could not find proof of this and can't verify that this actually happened. 

SO, this is not a valid argument, as the NHL rules allow "cradling" a puck on the blade so long as the puck is not "cradled" above the shoulders to necessitate a High-sticking violation.  

Read about that here

https://scoutingtherefs.com/2020/01/28389/nhl-rules-legal-lacrosse-style-goals/

Here's the discussion of the lacrosse goal that we have had on here.  For the record, while I grant that in the current rule scheme it is legal, I would strongly advocate for changing the rules to ban it, as I personally don't like skaters having the ability to "cradle" the puck on their blades and skating/shooting.  

https://www.thegoalnet.com/forums/topic/2907-the-lacrosse-goal-ban-it/?tab=comments#comment-60095

Edited January 24, 2020 by seagoal

[GoalieDad64]

Hey seagoal.  Love your discussion and your arguments.  Check out this cheap goal that broke a 0-0 tie and won the other team a week long tournament. Really sad for you son who had played great all week and in this game.

We live in Calgary Canada.  I want to petition Hockey Canada, Hockey Alberta and Hockey Calgary to eliminate this move at the minor hockey league level.  NHL will do whatever they choose, but those are grown men...usually over 6 foot 4!   I think that this is an impossible stop for a young goalie, and that just seems unfair.
I would love it if you could help me out with your thoughts, ideas, arguments and goalie network.  What do you say?

[Chenner29]

35 minutes ago, GoalieDad64 said:

Hey seagoal.  Love your discussion and your arguments.  Check out this cheap goal that broke a 0-0 tie and won the other team a week long tournament. Really sad for you son who had played great all week and in this game.

We live in Calgary Canada.  I want to petition Hockey Canada, Hockey Alberta and Hockey Calgary to eliminate this move at the minor hockey league level.  NHL will do whatever they choose, but those are grown men...usually over 6 foot 4!   I think that this is an impossible stop for a young goalie, and that just seems unfair.
I would love it if you could help me out with your thoughts, ideas, arguments and goalie network.  What do you say?

I've said it before in another thread and will say it again here.

There is no literally zero reason for any goalie to be on his knees with the puck behind the net.

The only reason why this move has gained so much traction recently is because players are adapting to goalies cheating into the RVH too early.

[GoalieDad64]

Hey Chenner29.  I will certainly be bringing this up with my son’s goalie trainers, but RVH is how these goalies have been trained to handle the wrap around, or pass out front.  You are saying that goalies can protect the net equally as well from wrap around/ pass out front while on their feet also protecting against the lacrosse move?

[seagoal]

22 minutes ago, GoalieDad64 said:

Hey seagoal.  Love your discussion and your arguments.  Check out this cheap goal that broke a 0-0 tie and won the other team a week long tournament. Really sad for you son who had played great all week and in this game.

We live in Calgary Canada.  I want to petition Hockey Canada, Hockey Alberta and Hockey Calgary to eliminate this move at the minor hockey league level.  NHL will do whatever they choose, but those are grown men...usually over 6 foot 4!   I think that this is an impossible stop for a young goalie, and that just seems unfair.
I would love it if you could help me out with your thoughts, ideas, arguments and goalie network.  What do you say?

Oh man.  So much to process in that video.

Crazy good use of that move by that shooter.  It's unfortunate how beautiful it is to watch it done successfully.   Your kid just collapsing forward in disgust at the end of the video is heartbreaking, ugh.  Poor guy. 

I respect you wanting to petition it.  My only concern would be making the argument that it is "impossible" to stop.  There are a couple of problems with that. 

The first being is that it's not truly impossible.  If your kid just stands straight up and does nothing on the post, it doesn't go in.  It would just hit him in the chest or shoulder  So it's not impossible, it's just tricky and difficult and goes contrary to everything we are taught to do as goalies.  In any typical behind the net wrap-around scenaris, we are taught to cover low on the post.  Traditionally we only, rightfully, expect a low slam dunk style shot to come from that scenario.  It's a very bitter pill to swallow as goalies, but how often would it have been the case that if we had just stood there, straight up, and literally did nothing, a goal we allowed would not have gone in?  More often than we can easily admit, even in the NHL.  But that being the case, the shot is not "impossible" to stop, we/your kid just made the wrong choice.  It happens and is often completely justified. 

The other problem with the "impossible" argument is this: what else is "impossible"?  2 on 0 rushes that result in a goal from a perfect pass and an easy goal that went in because we can't be 2 places at once?  So then should we ban 2 on 0 rushes?  Obviously, we should not.  And again, 2 on 0 rushes are not truly impossible to stop, they are just tricky and difficult and too easy to make the wrong choice.  But that's not impossible. 

I think the safest, most rational, and most logical way to ban the lacrosse goal is to ban ALL "cradling" the puck, or if you will, ban "travelling" like they do in basketball.  There is a reason why you can not travel (granted, you can travel more in the key/slot) in basketball: because a principle rule of basketball is that you must dribble to move.  

So it goes:

-You must dribble to move in basketball

-Travelling is moving without dribbling

_________________________________________

-Travelling is banned (given the 1 step or 2 step exceptions if you are or are not in the key/slot)

So this needs to be changed in hockey if the lacrosse goal is going to be banned.  So long as "cradling" the puck on the blade is allowed...so in other words in hockey right now skaters can put the puck on their blade below their shoulders and skate through the neutral zone if they wanted....then there is no room to ban the lacrosse goal.  

There needs to be something like in basketball for it to be banned.  Something like:

-You can only skate with possession of the puck on the ice***

-You are allowed to bat the puck in the air, as this does not involve taking possession of the puck

-The lacrosse goal is skating with possession of the puck on the blade and off of the ice

___________________________________________________________________________________________

-The lacrosse goal is banned

*** is the key component and this does not currently exist in hockey.  

I think that's where you attack if you were to appeal. 

[GoalieDad64]

I agree with you.... I like your cradling the puck argument and analogy to travelling in basketball.  
However, in youth sport, they promote the concepts of fair play, respect, etc. etc. A goalie can NOT be both on his knees at the post protecting from a wrap around/shot out front, and standing up straight along the post to block that top portion of the net from a lacrosse attempt.  In hockey, percentages are played. When the play is behind the net, the most likely attempt will be a wrap around or pass out front.  It is just smarter to be on your knees at the post.  And the shooter can make this move in what 2-3 seconds?  Not much time to recognize what is going on, and get up from your knees to a standing position.  
That is why I say “impossible”.  Obviously if you are in the right position, a save is not impossible.  But this move is grossly, blatantly in favour of the shooter.  And in youth sports that just doesn’t seem like fair play.

Oh....and a breakaway, 2 on none, 2 on 1, whatever....the play is I front of the goalie.  Given good positioning, reflexes, athleticism, the goalie has a fair CHANCE to make the save ( ie NHL skills competition yesterday). But this, a play behind the goalie, with obscured vision from the helmet etc., stacks the odds in favour of the shooter.  Would you suggest the goalie face into the net to better see the play developing behind him?  I doubt it.

[GoalieDad64]

And now even PeeWee kids, 11-12 yrs old (and probably soon even younger) are scoring on this lacrosse move.  So while skillful, how hard can it be really.  This kid scored on his FIRST attempt to do so in a game!  We are going to be seeing a lot of lacrosse goals in youth hockey....and that sucks if you are a young goalie.

[seagoal]

27 minutes ago, GoalieDad64 said:

I agree with you.... I like your cradling the puck argument and analogy to travelling in basketball.  
However, in youth sport, they promote the concepts of fair play, respect, etc. etc. A goalie can NOT be both on his knees at the post protecting from a wrap around/shot out front, and standing up straight along the post to block that top portion of the net from a lacrosse attempt.  In hockey, percentages are played. When the play is behind the net, the most likely attempt will be a wrap around or pass out front.  It is just smarter to be on your knees at the post.  And the shooter can make this move in what 2-3 seconds?  Not much time to recognize what is going on, and get up from your knees to a standing position.  
That is why I say “impossible”.  Obviously if you are in the right position, a save is not impossible.  But this move is grossly, blatantly in favour of the shooter.  And in youth sports that just doesn’t seem like fair play.

Oh....and a breakaway, 2 on none, 2 on 1, whatever....the play is I front of the goalie.  Given good positioning, reflexes, athleticism, the goalie has a fair CHANCE to make the save ( ie NHL skills competition yesterday). But this, a play behind the goalie, with obscured vision from the helmet etc., stacks the odds in favour of the shooter.  Would you suggest the goalie face into the net to better see the play developing behind him?  I doubt it.

I see your point, for sure.  

But, I am of the belief that every single goal we let in, from the easiest ones to the insanely good ones, even the "impossible" ones are the result of making the wrong choice, somewhere.  The goal is only so big and our job is to prevent pucks going in.  Had we done X instead of Y, a goal doesn't go in.  If X was the right save choice but our timing is off, it was still a choice to start X when we did rather than at another time.  

We play the percentages because that choice will pay off more in our favor than not.  That's whey we go down with heavy screens rather than jump up.  Do we get beat high on screen shots? Yes, but we made a choice that is BOTH the best percentage choice AND the wrong choice.  

See what I mean?

Your argument against the lacrosse goal, broken down, looks like this:

-The lacrosse goal is legal and allowed by the rules

-The lacrosse goal is unfair and too difficult for goalies. 

______________________________________________

-The lacrosse goal should be banned.

Do you still feel the same way seeing it like that?  See the problem?

Edited January 25, 2020 by seagoal

[GoalieDad64]

seagoal.....I see your point.  I will try to be less emotional and more logical!  I am just soooo pissed off by it all.  It will be really interesting to see how NHL goalies come to deal with this, and how much we start seeing this move in the minor hockey leagues.  Still say if the play is behind the goal, the goalie should be on their knees on the post, and it is up to the defenseman to wack the lacrosse player.  So not early a matter of was the right choice made or not.

[seagoal]

Goaltending is constant gambling and we make the wrong bet all the time.

I think it's nice to expect things from our team and even nicer when they do it, but none of that is more important than making the right series of choices in the net. 

Sure,  the quality and quantity of what we deal with is determined by other things beyond our control,  but we alone control our choices.  And that's about all we control on the ice (leaving out gear, conditioning, mental/emotional toughness...).

If we choose high, we are vulnerable low. If we choose low, we are vulnerable high. Same for left-right, shallow- deep, etc.

It's a constant predicament of gambling and choices.

This is why I constantly tell myself in games:

Be effective. Every shot is a good shot and stoppable.  The most important save I'm going to make is the next one. 

^ zero relevance to what happens in front of me...or behind me.

Edited January 26, 2020 by seagoal

[Chenner29]

11 hours ago, GoalieDad64 said:

Hey Chenner29.  I will certainly be bringing this up with my son’s goalie trainers, but RVH is how these goalies have been trained to handle the wrap around, or pass out front.  You are saying that goalies can protect the net equally as well from wrap around/ pass out front while on their feet also protecting against the lacrosse move?

Based on your posts, it seems as if you are assuming RVH is the best option when the puck is behind the net.  It is not.  It is the best option on tight jamming plays on the bad angle. 

When the puckcarrier went behind the net, I was always taught to:

1. Find center net
2. Widen out my feet towards each post
3. Attach to post depending on puck position and threat level, get stick involved at this point; the trapezoid now is actually a pretty good guideline to help with this now.

Breaking down the play you posted... 
Goal scorer receives puck behind the net.
Goalie loses sight of puck, flops to knees in the middle of the net, giving the option of either side to try a wrap
Goal scorer catches this and decides to pick it up and go for it

If the goalie stood on his feet...
Goalie would have gotten to his post a lot faster.  Gives D more time to recalibrate their positioning.
Shooter would not have even tried for the lax goal, seeing an upper body covering 3 foot 11 inches of net.

Of course, hindsight is 50/50.  Talking about expectation - that is a dangerous line for any aspiring competitive athlete, particularly in our position.  Breakdowns are inevitable, and that is why we exist.  Looking back really quickly on big save moments in the Cup Finals - I don't think Holtby had any expectation when he made that paddle save against Vegas in 2018.  Same thing with Fleury getting his shoulder on Lidstrom trying to crack home that shot from the slot in 2015. 

So let's get back to this discussion on a broadly strategic level.  We are trained not to make the first move, ever - and the shooter is not in a position to shoot when he is behind the net.  That eliminates his options to either a wrap or pass. Understanding what options are available will help the goalie make a better decision.  Goalie should get stickblade involved to eliminate the most dangerous play (cross-crease pass). 

With experience, the goalie will be able to read intention off the player by looking at: stick blade (handedness, angle to net), body language (player's head, shoulders, hips, skates - what direction are they pointing?).  All of this data gets processed pretty quickly and the goalie will move to the highest percentage option.

Here's a compilation of all 3 Michigan goals this year in the NHL.  They played it the same, and incorrectly.

Michigans!

IMO how it should be handled:

  Example 1

Another goal video, but read the coaching breakdown

[Mroy31]

@GoalieDad64 (wow there's a lot of goalie dads on this site :P)

@Chenner29 brings up a good point about reading the player that I think hasn't been mentioned a whole lot yet. The weakness with the lacrosse move is that the player has to telegraph it.  It looks distinctly different from a wrap attempt. Although a newer read for us to learn, that's the constant cat and mouse game we play. From the goalie's position on their feet, roughly center net, you can learn to pick up the body language to tell you a lacrosse move is coming vs a tight wrap. This info should dictate whether the goalie comes across in and RVH with active stick or hug post on their feet with active stick, not blind faith in one move. 

[creasecollector]

Us beer league guys better watch out backs (literally). It's only a matter of time before these young guns coming up tries this and scores in a beer league game/shinny with his buddies watching. 

Has anyone ever been scored on like this before? It's okay, we don't judge on here.

Unless it's Coop. He may judge you  

[seagoal]

53 minutes ago, creasecollector said:

Us beer league guys better watch out backs (literally). It's only a matter of time before these young guns coming up tries this and scores in a beer league game/shinny with his buddies watching. 

Has anyone ever been scored on like this before? It's okay, we don't judge on here.

Unless it's Coop. He may judge you  

My buddy tries and fails almost every Tuesday at our pick up game. 

It's crazy difficult in a game. He does it easily in warmups.

[MTH]

22 hours ago, creasecollector said:

Us beer league guys better watch out backs (literally). It's only a matter of time before these young guns coming up tries this and scores in a beer league game/shinny with his buddies watching. 

Has anyone ever been scored on like this before? It's okay, we don't judge on here.

Unless it's Coop. He may judge you  

I was playing high level roller when the Michigan happened. So every butt head would go behind the net and try it. Some could get the puck up on their stick during the game. 

I'm 6'2" - and this was before RVH was the thing - so while on my feet looking through the net, I'd see the dude pushing his stick down on the puck and I'd simply reach over the net and push them. Didn't take much contact to mess them up.

This was also the era where everyone was Wayne Gretzky behind the net and would pass to themselves off the flat part of the bottom of the goal like Gretzky did.

[MTH]

2011 Finnish postage stamp of the lacrosse goal: