Jump to content

How Much Do Goalies Matter?


estogoalie

Recommended Posts

This year my team has had to call in a few goalie subs this season due to illness/injury to me and our other regular goalie, and I've noticed that when we play the top 3 teams in our division, we ALWAYS lose by a score of about 10-2, regardless of who is in net. I know some of the subs that played for us are not that good, but still the score was in that 10-2 range. And it made me start to think "how much does the goalie really matter?" if there is a good goalie or bad goalie in net, if we still lose by about the same score.  

I know the goals that they (top teams) score on me are usually very hard to stop (ie: tick-tac-toe, etc.) where regardless how good/bad the goalie is, there's a 90% chance the puck is going in the net.  So I'm starting to think when playing stronger teams, it's not a big difference if you have a good goalie in net or a not-so-good goalie, it's still going to end up 10-2 (or somewhere abouts). I guess that a good vs bad goalie will only be more apparent in tighter games, where each goal counts, and more shots are "stoppable" or at least having more of a chance to be stopped.

Disclaimer: yes, I know GAA isn't really a good representation of how a goalie played, or if the other team was missing some good players, etc. Also, no, the top teams in our league don't usually "back off" once they have a big lead, sometimes they beat weaker teams by 20 or 30 goals. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think this is a tough question to answer and depends on how “good” we are talking about. A pro caliber goalie would probably be able to win any game in most beer leagues. 

I am just finishing my first 16 game season with a new team in the top division at one of my local rinks. They went 1-15 last season (the 1 win was when I subbed and they asked me to play the following season). We finished this regular season 8-8 but got blown out in the first playoff game. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's lots of fluff out there about what goalies really mean on a team... are the "kickers" of hockey?  I think not.

I've always had 95% of goalies in 1 of 2 categories:

1.  A goalie who wins in spite of their team

2.  A goalie who wins because of their team

I've been on some bad teams and I don't believe we can single-handedly win a game on our own.  My philosophy is to always put my team in a position to win.  In rec that's 5 goals... if I can give up less than 5, we should have a chance to win.  The other thing is bad goals... nothing seems to deflate a team more than an ugly goal.

At the end of the game if you're getting compliments from your guys or the other team, regardless of outcome... you're laughing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, estogoalie said:

This year my team has had to call in a few goalie subs this season due to illness/injury to me and our other regular goalie, and I've noticed that when we play the top 3 teams in our division, we ALWAYS lose by a score of about 10-2, regardless of who is in net. I know some of the subs that played for us are not that good, but still the score was in that 10-2 range. And it made me start to think "how much does the goalie really matter?" if there is a good goalie or bad goalie in net, if we still lose by about the same score.  

I know the goals that they (top teams) score on me are usually very hard to stop (ie: tick-tac-toe, etc.) where regardless how good/bad the goalie is, there's a 90% chance the puck is going in the net.  So I'm starting to think when playing stronger teams, it's not a big difference if you have a good goalie in net or a not-so-good goalie, it's still going to end up 10-2 (or somewhere abouts). I guess that a good vs bad goalie will only be more apparent in tighter games, where each goal counts, and more shots are "stoppable" or at least having more of a chance to be stopped.

Disclaimer: yes, I know GAA isn't really a good representation of how a goalie played, or if the other team was missing some good players, etc. Also, no, the top teams in our league don't usually "back off" once they have a big lead, sometimes they beat weaker teams by 20 or 30 goals. 

Sounds like a poorly structured league, meaning there is too much of a difference in the top teams from the bottom.  In a league like you're describing,  it does seem to suggest the particular goalies on the weaker teams are irrelevant.  There's nothing you can do about that.

My league is large enough (100+ teams) to have well structured divisions with good parity. So individual goalies are very relevant. We have games in both higher and lower divisions and in the higher ones, the pressure is on me to be the best player and steal the game.  In the lower games,  I have room for error and take more risks.

Good goaltending is a function of many things beyond our control, which is a big source of frustration for many goalies when you boil it down.  The parity and quality of hockey in front of us determines how relevant we are as a goalie in terms of winning games.  It definitely helps to take stock of that when we look inward and evaluate our play.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that yes goalies do matter, now you have to respect everyone but in beer leagues the goalies all differ, you got the 25 years olds and can go up to 50 years of age, and they all have different skill levels, quickness, can read the play better, years of experience etc..  But in the higher leagues a timely save vs the other goalie means you going home with a win by a goal.  I have been in tight games and blowouts as well, but a better goalie does make a difference.  I have seen some goalies steal games as well which I played vs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Chenner29 said:

I think this is a tough question to answer and depends on how “good” we are talking about. A pro caliber goalie would probably be able to win any game in most beer leagues. 

Good/great goalies can't "win" games unless they can also skate up a score goals. The best a goalie can do is give their team a chance to win games. 

If you dropped Pekka Rinne into a beer league game, would his team automatically win? That's fun to ponder, but I wouldn't be so fast to say "yes". If you dropped Crosby into a beer league game, I'd say there's a 99% chance his team would win, because he could probably skate circles around everyone and score more-or-less at will, which would have a big outcome on the score. But a goalie? I mean there are some instances where a goalie, even a pro, has little or no chance. Eg. a 2-on-0, the goalie can't move  laterally faster than the puck. Or a shot that is tipped and redirected gives almost no time for the goalie to react. Or even just a bad bounce.  Or rebounds, maybe he makes the initial save or two, but if the D doesn't clear the puck, goalie is out of position, and well....These things happen in the NHL as well, on down to the beer leagues. 

I'd say if Pekka RInne replaced me in my next game against the top tier teams, we'd still lose, but instead of 10-2 maybe just 4-2. I'd say the chance of a 2-0 win is very slim, altho who nows. Anyone got Pekka's number? I'll gladly step aside and let hom sub in my team's next game ;) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My take on all this:

Although it's a team sport, the role of the goalie is somewhat independent from what's going on in front. Don't forget that there's no one sitting behind you if you screw up or simply get beat, the risk and recovery factors are different between forwards and goalies. In saying that, there are many other issues at stake, many have been pointed out already above, such as stacking a team for instance. Like you point out Erik, you could drop Pekka in nets and despite his level of expertise, he would still get scored on. We all know how shit our game becomes when we play down a level or more, timing is off and the reads are different.

Lets not forget that the other teams throughout the season get to know your weaknesses, so they get to play on that, but at the same time you get to learn their go to moves and can anticipate and make the save eventually, cutting down on their scoring chances. Bring in a new goalie, he/she has no clue what to expect and it pretty much is like gambling on a win, throw them dice and hope to avoid snake eyes.

Another key factor is the mental state of the goalie and the forwards. How is your confidence in goal? Do you get to the rink and say "ah fuck man, we're playing these guys again?!". The new goalie is even more at risk despite his confidence and ego. Are the forwards confident in their game? Do they view this as a "bring it on" challenge? Or are they looking like their getting ready for the electric chair? One thing that irates me to the core is when I sub in and after the initial "hey Rich, thanks for coming out, really appreciate the last minute call up" is the second comment in the room, "so, you gonna win this one for us?" with a grin and a seemingly gleam of desperation and hope, followed by "hope you like eating rubber" and the list goes on. THIS is a clear indication of the low moral and lack of confidence the team has going in that game. They basically have already accepted defeat. If this happens on a team that I'm a regular goalie for, I will automatically fire back with a mini speech to say they're no different from any team, we got this, go out there and show them what good smart hard hockey is about, we got this!!!

Those are my personal experiences over the years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, estogoalie said:

Good/great goalies can't "win" games unless they can also skate up a score goals. The best a goalie can do is give their team a chance to win games. 

If you dropped Pekka Rinne into a beer league game, would his team automatically win? That's fun to ponder, but I wouldn't be so fast to say "yes". If you dropped Crosby into a beer league game, I'd say there's a 99% chance his team would win, because he could probably skate circles around everyone and score more-or-less at will, which would have a big outcome on the score. But a goalie? I mean there are some instances where a goalie, even a pro, has little or no chance. Eg. a 2-on-0, the goalie can't move  laterally faster than the puck. Or a shot that is tipped and redirected gives almost no time for the goalie to react. Or even just a bad bounce.  Or rebounds, maybe he makes the initial save or two, but if the D doesn't clear the puck, goalie is out of position, and well....These things happen in the NHL as well, on down to the beer leagues. 

I'd say if Pekka RInne replaced me in my next game against the top tier teams, we'd still lose, but instead of 10-2 maybe just 4-2. I'd say the chance of a 2-0 win is very slim, altho who nows. Anyone got Pekka's number? I'll gladly step aside and let hom sub in my team's next game ;) 

Yes, goals for are an important metric, but IMO the Crosby comparison applies to goalies as well. I really don’t think a pro caliber goalie would be behind any kind of play at the adult rec league level. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Chenner29 said:

Yes, goals for are an important metric, but IMO the Crosby comparison applies to goalies as well. I really don’t think a pro caliber goalie would be behind any kind of play at the adult rec league level. 

Thank you. I feel like a lot of guys here really undervalue how good the NHL guys are. Either that or they overvalue their own play.

Hell, toss in a kid playing in the CHL and watch him dominate any members' game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with most of the points made in the previous 4 posts, (Esto, Rich, Chenner and Coop). My 2 cents...

 

It is obvious an NHL level goalie would make a huge difference with his skill set, but I also see this as an "unlevel-playing field" comparison. The Crosby example sort of speaks to this: most of us have played a game where most were average caliber beer-leagers, but then the one ringer shows up and constantly skates around every one and pots about 20 goals mainly because being unchecked, he has all day to set up and deke you out of your cup (and make you look bad). Everyone thinks “he’s high caliber” (or other things I won’t repeat) but if he was checked at his level, he wouldn’t have had all those ridiculous chances. NHL goalies get the benefit of some pretty good D. When their D fail, it’s just as bad a day for them as any other goalie.

 

More importantly though: most people here range from shinny, to beer-league to probably high caliber men’s’-league goaltending. What does that mean? Well you are up at 6:00 or 7:00, go to work all day - perhaps sit at a desk, perhaps bust your butt at manual labour. Then home you go help with the kids, maybe shovel some snow, pack your stuff - find that piece of gear you broke and duct tape it back together while cursing the fact you should have done this two nights ago (wait, that was when you had to take your daughter to her swim meet in the next town over), get some poor stretching in, drive anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour to get to the rink and as you dress, watch one of your D shotgun a couple of beer and tell you “hey, it’s just a fun league”.

 

Pregame nap: nope

Mental prep time : nope (actually I guess that could happen in the drive to the rink - no need to pay attention to the road)

Trainer helping you dial in the skate fit (for this game): nope

Physio guy or gal working with you on that bit of discomfort you had in your elbow last game: nope

Gear guy setting out your sticks for the game (just in case one feels "off" 6 minutes into the period) : nope

X hours of dedicated practice time every X days to work on the little issues you had last game: nope

Pregame video & analysis showing how opposing shooters like to drag & curl, go far-side on a cross crease cut or whatever: nope

Near equal level of players on both your team and the opposition: nope

Discussion with your “D-team” on how things will set up: nope

Structured warm-up designed to give the goalie the feel of the puck and get his confidence up: nope

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You guys find it more difficult to play up or down?  Let's say you're  Div. 4.  Is it more difficult to play Div. 2 or 6?

For me it's 6.  It's so much less structured, less predictable, and much more erratic with lots of mistakes and surprises. 

It'd be interesting to see an NHL goalie play in a Div. 4 beer league.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's how I see it. I'll use "NHL goalie" because that seems to be the common reference point. Alongside high school hockey I also play rec league. I am still eligible for 14U rec but they moved me up to 18U for dominating too much (and there was a spare goalie on the lower level 14U team). I was recently called back down to play for 14U and I couldn't stop the puck to save my life. The shots were so unbelievably unpredictable and slow that I would either overshoot the save or completely misread the shot. Obviously I'm no NHL goalie but I think if an NHL goalie were to play D level Beer League then he would have a bit more trouble too. I've been out to a couple of my dad's Beer League "practices" and I can say that the shots aren't any more predictable than 14U house but they are faster.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, seagoal said:

You guys find it more difficult to play up or down?

Whenever I play down they always beat me high glove 😣

I think it’s pretty universal thinking that lower level is always harder – the good (OK better) shooters have way too much time to set up. It gets to the point where I’m waiting and waiting and I can just tell the forward is thinking “now if I go high blocker I may miss and go over the net, where as if I go 5-hole at least I get a rebound if it doesn’t go in. OK, I’m goin’ 5-hole, just gotta get my weight set right”. Of course by that time I’ve totally lost any confidence I had in stopping the puck (the quintessential “psyche-out”). At high level the shooter has very little time to setup a snipe.

One thing that has to be remembered: at a given distance away from the net (varies from goalie to goalie) any decent shot within the 4 x 6 foot boundary is impossible to stop with a reflexive save – if it doesn’t hit you, it’s going in

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There was a league I used to play in that had 1 division, 6 teams.  Div. 6 mixed in with Div. 2 guys and everything in between. 

I used to joke that on breakaways, it was equally likely that a guy could just shake me and make me look like a fool, or, just fall flat on his face and not touch the puck.

That was the most difficult league I have ever played in .  Impossible to dial in and get in a groove.  So much of being a good goalie is the gauging the  predictability of the hockey in front of you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's the top team in my league's record (HC Ice Fighters), they are a group of former Div.1 (pro/semi-pro) players who recently "retired" (all in their 30's) notice they destroy all their opponents and haven't lost a game (rest of the teams are around Div.4 level). But yet also notice that they have not gotten a shutout yet either yet this season. Why is that? Because s**t happens. No goalie no matter how good is going to stop everything. There's always going to be some re-direct, rebound, bounce, etc. that not even Mr.Pro is gonna stop.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I remember in my most recent game, I had a very weird game to say the least,  in saying that, I felt good about the game afterwards but I let in two soft goals, the other two I couldn’t do much about. However I made a lot of game changing saves, one on a breakaway where the game could’ve been tied (at least I think so) and about 5 others were point blank but of course the scorekeeper didn’t count those lol. It wa some of the few games where I felt my team was really supporting me, protecting me more in a way. I did get some criticism for those 2 goals but I know those are ones I could’ve saved. In saying this, you should be giving your team a chance to win every game, and of course goalies matter, why would they not? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, southpawtendy48 said:

It wa some of the few games where I felt my team was really supporting me, protecting me more in a way.

I wish my team would support me. My team criticizes me for every goal even though me and our two travel kids are the only reason we leveled JV Gold. I get invited out to AA practices and AAA camps all the time and yet my team still refers to me as "the house goalie" (That doesn't bother me too much. I am what I am. Even if I'm playing two ages groups up in house league). I've played some of the best games of my life with them and all I get is "that looked about average". 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, ThatCarGuy said:

I wish my team would support me. My team criticizes me for every goal even though me and our two travel kids are the only reason we leveled JV Gold. I get invited out to "AA" practices and "AAA" camps all the time and yet my team still refers to me as "the house goalie".

Trust me man, I feel that, my first ever team was horrible. It was a house league so you shouldn’t expect much, i was the only girl on the team and everyone else loved the other goalie,  a horrible rumor was made about me and permanently ruined my relationship with anyone around that team (most of them anyway)

my team is still getting used to protecting me more, my coach luckily made more of an emphasis on the fact that I’m their goalie sort of in a way. 

honestly, there’s always gonna be assholes on your team but try communicating with your coach a little, and if he doesn’t think it’s a big deal then there’s a problem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/11/2019 at 10:31 AM, cwarnar said:

There's lots of fluff out there about what goalies really mean on a team... are the "kickers" of hockey?  I think not.

I've always had 95% of goalies in 1 of 2 categories:

1.  A goalie who wins in spite of their team

2.  A goalie who wins because of their team

I've been on some bad teams and I don't believe we can single-handedly win a game on our own.  My philosophy is to always put my team in a position to win.  In rec that's 5 goals... if I can give up less than 5, we should have a chance to win.  The other thing is bad goals... nothing seems to deflate a team more than an ugly goal.

At the end of the game if you're getting compliments from your guys or the other team, regardless of outcome... you're laughing.

This is a lot like the new GSAA (Goals Saved Above Average) stat. Tells you what goalies are the team (i.e. Gibson until recently), guys who win because of their team's support (Quick prior to last two seasons), or guys that cost the team games (Allen, Jones, etc...).

Between future NHL rule changes and gear changes/regulations, I feel like we might be antiquated in the grand scheme of mass appeal money-making and will not matter in the coming decade. Owners want that green and think rubes will enjoy hockey more with NFL or MLB scores. I'm a paranoid person who thinks weird shit, and believe NHL will become a new thing entirely, American hockey. It will be like lacrosse with skating and occasional body contact, lots of scoring, and goalies will be like batters where toting a 30% saves rate is considered successful. There will come a point when we'll have to argue with Europeans on internet comment sections like we do with football and American football. That is if we have the luxury of internet by then after we're all moved into mega cities because half the country will become uninhabitable due to climate changes, or if 99942 Apophis hits us in 2029 (ironically on my birthday). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, estogoalie said:

Good/great goalies can't "win" games unless they can also skate up a score goals. The best a goalie can do is give their team a chance to win games.

2 hours ago, estogoalie said:

Here's the top team in my league's record (HC Ice Fighters), they are a group of former Div.1 (pro/semi-pro) players who recently "retired" (all in their 30's) notice they destroy all their opponents and haven't lost a game (rest of the teams are around Div.4 level). But yet also notice that they have not gotten a shutout yet either yet this season. Why is that? Because s**t happens. No goalie no matter how good is going to stop everything. There's always going to be some re-direct, rebound, bounce, etc. that not even Mr.Pro is gonna stop. 

So, which is it?

For your latter statement, the same could be said on the theoretical, full-time beer league goalie on the opposing side.  In which case, our pro goalie playing down would have a margin of error for one or two goals.

Pro players have difficulty scoring on goalies in practice with zero defense.  Line rushes, breakaways, etc.  I'm pretty sure a pro goalie can handle the "rigors" of beer league after dealing with and competing against the top 800 players in the world.

5 hours ago, coopaloop1234 said:

Thank you. I feel like a lot of guys here really undervalue how good the NHL guys are. Either that or they overvalue their own play.

Hell, toss in a kid playing in the CHL and watch him dominate any members' game. 

Right.

I think the average save percentage have gone up almost every year in the league barring this year; yet players are much faster now than they were in the 90s and even 2000s. Why is that?  A goalie on a pro contract is a goddamn freak of nature.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Who's Online   1 Member, 1 Anonymous, 25 Guests (See full list)

  • Member Statistics

    1,982
    Total Members
    2,646
    Most Online
    Molitygri
    Newest Member
    Molitygri
    Joined
×
×
  • Create New...