The butterfly flare discussion thread: Tips, trials and tendencies

[RichMan]

This photo here is what just triggered this thread I'm creating...

I know that most of you, as I, have dabbled with Maria Mountain's Butterfly challenge, and some of you have used it with success. I for one, not so much despite my efforts.

Some of you are gifted with crazy hip rotation while some others are limited to some kind of hip impingement and are forced to wear truck sized bumpers on your knees and thighs for protection.

Going back to the first picture above (I think it's Garret Sparks), I noticed that his pads aren't over sized (like things were in the early 2000s) and I noticed that his thighs aren't touching together, and I also noticed that his skates are pretty much toe down and not turned sideways like some goalies do, yet he has a reasonable good flare and manages to seal the 5 hole well with his pads. This led me to wonder if, natural physical attributes and/or limitations aside, if there is more to actual technique or maybe even gear than all the stretching and myofascia release you can do to improve your butterfly flare.

Other than Maria's programs and tips, has anyone used other programs or formulas and have been able to see some progress and improvement, no matter how big or small? 

Please share    

[ThatCarGuy]

Personally the only programs I’ve used were Maria’s shutout academy and butterfly challenge as well as one other stretch of hers that I adore because I can do it anywhere anytime.

The result after nearly 3 years of going on and off the program?

180° butterfly flare. 
I have some other daily stretches that I do strictly to help me get my splits but those help little to none with butterfly flare. 

[RichMan]

I've seen that video. Like many of her other stuff I try to apply what feels right for my hips tolerance.

I'm also surely double (or more) your age and tissues aren't as loose or nimble as they once were   

[Ross]

Try increasing the height/thickness of your knee stack. I do this and there is a noticeable increase in my flare. On my G5 pads I have the knee stack at 3”.

[Chenner29]

2 hours ago, RichMan said:

Going back to the first picture above (I think it's Garret Sparks), I noticed that his pads aren't over sized (like things were in the early 2000s)

Duh, gear's been shrunk multiple times since then

Quote

 and I noticed that his thighs aren't touching together, and I also noticed that his skates are pretty much toe down and not turned sideways like some goalies do, yet he has a reasonable good flare and manages to seal the 5 hole well with his pads. This led me to wonder if, natural physical attributes and/or limitations aside, if there is more to actual technique or maybe even gear than all the stretching and myofascia release you can do to improve your butterfly flare.

Note that pants shrunk in the years between your comparison pics, and Giguere's weight is back on his heels in the pic you shared. 

No gear is going to be able to immediately give you a better flare.

There is some biological capability (how deep-seated your hip sockets are). 

Keep in mind the sample size you are seeing is at the NHL level, so you are seeing less than 1% of goalies represented globally.  Don't feel peer-pressured into having a perfect butterfly
You want to SMR (self myofascial release) before you stretch. SMR breaks up the adhesions in your fascia, then you can stretch to explore the new range of motion
You also want strength in a few ways

• develop in the surrounding muscle groups (glutes, abductors, hamstrings, core, etc)
• develop in the end range (no use dropping into a perfect 180* butterfly if you can't recover from it)
• develop core strength/stability so you don't hurt yourself in an extended position like this

Quote

Other than Maria's programs and tips, has anyone used other programs or formulas and have been able to see some progress and improvement, no matter how big or small?

check out DKmobility on IG

[ArdeFIN]

4 hours ago, Ross said:

Try increasing the height/thickness of your knee stack. I do this and there is a noticeable increase in my flare. On my G5 pads I have the knee stack at 3”.

Is this original from factory or modified some way? This is something I'm gonna give a try at some point.

[ser33]

https://youtu.be/iF7jrwL3F9I

[Yzueblin]

9 hours ago, RichMan said:

This photo here is what just triggered this thread I'm creating...

I know that most of you, as I, have dabbled with Maria Mountain's Butterfly challenge, and some of you have used it with success. I for one, not so much despite my efforts.

Some of you are gifted with crazy hip rotation while some others are limited to some kind of hip impingement and are forced to wear truck sized bumpers on your knees and thighs for protection.

Going back to the first picture above (I think it's Garret Sparks), I noticed that his pads aren't over sized (like things were in the early 2000s) and I noticed that his thighs aren't touching together, and I also noticed that his skates are pretty much toe down and not turned sideways like some goalies do, yet he has a reasonable good flare and manages to seal the 5 hole well with his pads. This led me to wonder if, natural physical attributes and/or limitations aside, if there is more to actual technique or maybe even gear than all the stretching and myofascia release you can do to improve your butterfly flare.

Other than Maria's programs and tips, has anyone used other programs or formulas and have been able to see some progress and improvement, no matter how big or small? 

Please share    

Don’t forget the people of nhl from age of 12 to now have yoga session stretching session etc every day ! For us best way to be flexible is patience , continue to do some mobility every day and win some small gain every day 

People don’t imagine the sacrifice pro athlete can do to be a pro 

I have some CrossFit game athlete at my gym all their life and job are around the time they can train to reach their goal. 
 

[Scythe]

I'm waiting for stand up to come back around.. I'm pretty good with kick and skate saves. 

[bildeer]

When I started playing, I had put quite a bit of effort into making my butterfly flare wider, but after seeing how J.S. Giguere and Jonas Hiller both played with very large knee pads and often used little to no flare in their butterfly save selection, I had decided to give that a try. 

I found that it placed much less stress on my hips, made movement easier due to the added stability of having my legs directly behind me. The huge knee pads that I was wearing (Koho 589) allowed me to take direct shots to the knees, and because my leg pads were about as straight as ironing boards (but very soft) the puck would often drop down between the thigh rises pointing straight out and form a wall on each side of the  puck, effectively trapping it. I also found that at the depth that I play at in relation to the crease, if a puck goes past my leg pad, it is going to go wide. 

I have had pretty good success with this at decent levels of hockey (ACHA div 1), but with like most things goaltending related (and in life), your experience may vary.

[ThatCarGuy]

3 hours ago, Scythe said:

I'm waiting for stand up to come back around.. I'm pretty good with kick and skate saves. 

I do a good bit of skate saves but they probably aren’t what you’re thinking of. I use the outside of my skate to direct pucks into the corners on occasion 

[Ross]

Just did a comparison of the width of my butterfly flare In 3 different setups.  

Wearing only my knee pads my flare is about is about 42”. Wearing my G5 pads, with a 3” knee stack ( I modified the stock knee stack)  my flare is about 48”. Wearing my homemade ball hockey pads that have a 4” knee stack, my flare is about 52”. 

 So for me increasing the height of my knee stacks does increase the width of my flare and at 58 yrs old I’ll do anything that helps.

[seagoal]

On 4/11/2021 at 6:36 PM, Ross said:

Just did a comparison of the width of my butterfly flare In 3 different setups.  

Wearing only my knee pads my flare is about is about 42”. Wearing my G5 pads, with a 3” knee stack ( I modified the stock knee stack)  my flare is about 48”. Wearing my homemade ball hockey pads that have a 4” knee stack, my flare is about 52”. 

 So for me increasing the height of my knee stacks does increase the width of my flare and at 58 yrs old I’ll do anything that helps.

Question for you: are the tops of your pads at least touching or overlapping, or, are they more like this /\?

I am enjoying this discussion, it's something I think about a lot as a goalie who rarely if ever see the tops of my pads closed and flush.  I am certainly on the restrictive, inflexible hips end of the spectrum.  

I think about why it is, in general, that pads close when in a symmetrical butterfly.  Is it mostly body mechanics? mostly gear? if a combination of the two, how much body and how much gear?

I think this photo illustrates what I mean.
 

Don't get me wrong, I know for Quick it's mostly his body and not his gear.  His pads are among the softest in the NHL and you can see here how severely curved they are....he also wears a thigh strap.

At the same, he does this every night, so he is not someone who NEEDS squishy pads with a thigh strap in order to close his 5 hole. 

He is one the most flexible goalies in the NHL as well, which is odd considering his squishy pad preferences.  You'd think a goalie made of rubber bands wouldn't want pads made of cotton candy, but he does. 

To get the tops of pads closing, something has to bring them towards the center: a wide flare with your feet/hips, pad curve either from straps or their shape/structure, or just their thigh-rise length. 

This is a good picture to show pads that are not bending, a rather narrow butterfly in this moment, and a /\ shape.  

Pads are rarely straight like 2x4s so even with a moderately narrow butterfly like Rinne in this instance, if they're long enough, eventually they'll close. 

Here's a good example of a very wide butterfly and good closure

Thinking about being down in a butterfly, it's basic see-saw physics along the ice: to get one end going in, you need to other end going out if we are just talking about the body doing the work of closing the pads.  Imagine keeping Fleury in that same position but being able to move around him and manipulating him.  If you wanted to separate the tops of this pads, yes, you could just grab the tops and pull them apart.  But, you could also just push his feet under his butt and acheive the exact same thing. Those pads do have a nice S shape and that for sure helps with closure. 

If you can't get you're feet going out and bringing the tops of the pads in, soft pads with a thigh strap are one way to override this bodily limitation. It's a way of "cheating" the tops in when the other end, your feet, can not go out. 

I remember the days when crazy long thigh rises were the hot topic.  This is of course another way of "cheating" the tops in when the other end, our feet, can not go out.  But then of course there are the drawbacks and disadvantages of mobility and other functionalities when either pads that are too large, or, thigh rises that are too long. 

Seems like for goalies who have very limited, restricted hip mobility and thus a narrow flare, the worst case scenario with the goal of closing the tops of pads in a butterfly are stiff pads with no thigh strap.  That is going to be the toughest set-up.  If you're Quick, then you can wear whatever the hell you want and it does not matter. These are the extremes and with most goalies somewhere in the middle, it's all about finding that right connection of your body and your gear to do that work of closing the pads in a butterfly. 

[Ross]

The tops of my pads are touching.

[seagoal]

9 minutes ago, Ross said:

The tops of my pads are touching.

 

Excellent, I'm guessing more like /\ based on the geometry going on. 

[Ross]

That’s correct.

[Chenner29]

2 hours ago, Ross said:

Just did a comparison of the width of my butterfly flare In 3 different setups.  

Wearing only my knee pads my flare is about is about 42”. Wearing my G5 pads, with a 3” knee stack ( I modified the stock knee stack)  my flare is about 48”. Wearing my homemade ball hockey pads that have a 4” knee stack, my flare is about 52”. 

 So for me increasing the height of my knee stacks does increase the width of my flare and at 58 yrs old I’ll do anything that helps.

The heel of your left skate kicks up a little bit more than your right.  Do you have any injuries on the left?

[Ross]

My left foot has always toed in more than my right. 

[RichMan]

I'm happy to see all the input coming in. Clearly we beer leaguers are still concerned with our butterfly abilities, enough to work on it at least.

For me, I can easily just have knee facing saves a la Giggy if squared to the shot. But in cases where I'm trying to control the ice space in accordance to my depth in cases of tips or deflections, a wider butterfly will be very useful. My pinball flipper technique helps me a lot but won't always save my ass, especially on quick releases.

As for having a higher knee stack, I can see the logic in it but I do question how much space that takes away in the knee cradle and depending on the type/model of knee protectors you are wearing, but that is a non issue I guess with the pad models we've been seeing the past 2-3 years.

I'm wondering if the toe ties factor as well. I have the Pro-Laces set-up.

[ser33]

3 hours ago, RichMan said:

I'm wondering if the toe ties factor as well. I have the Pro-Laces set-up.

binding is very influential. the looser your foot, the more it can turn and the wider the butterfly will be

a high knee stack also allows your foot to swing more

[coopaloop1234]

I think I've been very fortunate when it's come to my flexibility. It's never been anything I've worked on throughout my life but I've always had a decent amount of range and my body has always been resilient to the abuse I've tossed at it. Because of this, it's never been something I've actively worked towards aside from some more specific stretching during warmups.

Here's the only real picture I have of my typical butterfly width. I feel it's a decent flare that covers up the knees and creates that nice little triangle pocket between the thighrises and my knees.

 

Of course, as a beer leaguer, my overall technique isn't fantastic can anyone tell me how I can improve on this save selection? :

 

 

 

[CJ Boiss]

2 hours ago, coopaloop1234 said:

Of course, as a beer leaguer, my overall technique isn't fantastic can anyone tell me how I can improve on this save selection? :

Well, step one would be opening your eyes, I think.

[coopaloop1234]

13 minutes ago, CJ Boiss said:

Well, step one would be opening your eyes, I think.

But the puck scares me...

[CJ Boiss]

37 minutes ago, coopaloop1234 said:

But the puck scares me...

Bite the puck before the game starts. Make it fear you.

[coopaloop1234]

7 minutes ago, CJ Boiss said:

Bite the puck before the game starts. Make it fear you.

That reminds me of this: https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/comments/12edw2/update_would_it_mess_me_up_if_i_ate_a_puck/