Early 2000s - Best Goalies Ever?

[MTH]

Living in Philly and being a hockey fan is tough. You're always told the Flyers don't have a goalie. blah blah blah

"Best they ever had was Bernie then Pelle - since then, nobody!"

Looking back through yearly stats, you can't help but notice the years after 2000 until the lockout had some insane numbers. While the NHL has gone after goalies since the lockout, its turned the position into a who's who of guys who barely stick around. Most average NHL fans couldn't name the top 5 goalies these days. Most sports fans couldn't name 5 starting goalies.

But waaaaaay back when. Right before the lockout; it was a different time in the NHL. Goalies were very good. Sub 2 GAA was not uncommon for several goalies. Save percentages higher than .920 all around. Guys with names we all knew were a plenty...

Then the lockout.

Then we've slid into this clones and drones era of all goalies look the same, play the same and drift through numerous teams.

What happened?

Look at the top 25 goalies in 2000-2001:

1	Martin Brodeur*	28	NJD	72		42	17	11	166	1762	1596	.906	2.32	9	11.3	4297				97	4.45	0	1	1	14
2	Patrick Roy*	35	COL	62		40	13	7	132	1513	1381	.913	2.22	4	10.8	3585				90	14.36	0	5	5	10
3	Dominik Hasek*	36	BUF	67		37	24	4	137	1726	1589	.921	2.11	11	13.9	3904				82	29.97	0	3	3	22
4	Arturs Irbe	33	CAR	77		37	29	9	180	1947	1767	.908	2.45	6	12.9	4406				96	8.35	0	2	2	6
5	Olaf Kolzig	30	WSH	72		37	26	8	177	1941	1764	.909	2.48	5	13.1	4279				94	10.77	0	2	2	14
6	Patrick Lalime	26	OTT	60		36	19	5	141	1640	1499	.914	2.35	7	12.0	3607				89	17.65	0	1	1	2
7	Tommy Salo	29	EDM	73		36	25	12	179	1856	1677	.904	2.46	8	11.5	4364				100	0.55	0	1	1	4
8	Roman Cechmanek	29	PHI	59		35	15	6	115	1464	1349	.921	2.01	10	11.9	3431				81	26.62	0	1	1	4
9	Ed Belfour*	35	DAL	63		35	20	7	144	1508	1364	.905	2.34	8	9.5	3687				99	1.88	0	1	1	4
10	Curtis Joseph	33	TOR	68		33	27	8	163	1907	1744	.915	2.39	6	14.0	4100				88	21.48	0	1	1	8
11	Evgeni Nabokov	25	SJS	66		32	21	7	135	1582	1447	.915	2.19	6	11.7	3700				88	18.04	0	2	2	8
12	Felix Potvin	29	TOT	58		27	22	8	149	1485	1336	.900	2.62	6	8.5	3416				104	-5.34	0	5	5	4
13	Jocelyn Thibault	26	CHI	66		27	32	7	180	1711	1531	.895	2.81	6	8.9	3844				109	-14.48	0	3	3	2
14	Sean Burke	34	PHX	62		25	22	13	138	1766	1628	.922	2.27	4	14.4	3644				81	32.84	0	1	1	16
15	Chris Osgood	28	DET	52		25	19	4	127	1310	1183	.903	2.69	1	8.0	2834				100	-0.27	0	0	0	8
16	Manny Legace	27	DET	39		24	5	5	73	909	836	.920	2.05	2	7.2	2136				83	14.93	0	2	2	4
17	Roman Turek	30	STL	54		24	18	10	123	1248	1125	.901	2.27	6	7.4	3232				102	-2.27	0	1	1	6
18	Byron Dafoe	29	BOS	45		22	14	7	101	1076	975	.906	2.39	2	6.9	2536				97	3.09	0	2	2	6
19	Ron Tugnutt	33	CBJ	53		22	25	5	127	1528	1401	.917	2.44	4	11.6	3129				86	20.82	0	1	1	2
20	Mike Dunham	28	NSH	48		21	21	4	107	1381	1274	.923	2.33	4	11.4	2810				80	26.59	0	0	0	2
21	Jose Theodore	24	MTL	59		20	29	5	141	1546	1405	.909	2.57	2	10.4	3298				94	8.56	1	0	1	6
22	Kevin Weekes	25	TBL	61		20	33	3	177	1742	1565	.898	3.15	4	9.8	3378				105	-8.48	0	1	1	4
23	Mike Richter	34	NYR	45		20	21	3	144	1343	1199	.893	3.28	0	6.7	2635				111	-14.08	0	0	0	0
24	Jean-Sebastien Aubin	23	PIT	36		20	14	1	107	973	866	.890	3.33	0	4.6	2050				114	-12.87	0	1	1	4
25	Brent Johnson

Solid list of names. By the last season before the lockout, the NHL goalie looked like this:

Rk	Player	Age	Tm	GP	GS	W ▼	L	T/O	GA	SA	SV	SV%	GAA	SO	GPS	MIN	QS	QS%	RBS	GA%-	GSAA	G	A	PTS	PIM
1	Martin Brodeur*	31	NJD	75		38	26	11	154	1845	1691	.917	2.03	11	12.5	4555				94	10.31	0	0	0	4
2	Marty Turco	28	DAL	73		37	21	13	144	1648	1504	.913	1.98	9	10.4	4359				98	2.77	0	1	1	32
3	Ed Belfour*	38	TOR	59		34	19	6	122	1483	1361	.918	2.13	10	10.3	3444				92	10.07	0	2	2	16
4	Tomas Vokoun	27	NSH	73		34	29	10	178	1958	1780	.909	2.53	3	11.6	4221				102	-3.63	0	2	2	35
5	Jose Theodore	27	MTL	67		33	28	5	150	1860	1710	.919	2.27	6	13.2	3961				91	15.65	0	3	3	4
6	Dan Cloutier	27	VAN	60		33	21	6	134	1554	1420	.914	2.27	5	10.0	3539				97	4.39	0	1	1	22
7	David Aebischer	25	COL	62		32	19	9	129	1703	1574	.924	2.09	4	13.1	3703				85	22.66	0	1	1	4
8	Evgeni Nabokov	28	SJS	59		31	19	8	127	1610	1483	.921	2.21	9	11.8	3456				89	16.38	0	0	0	14
9	Chris Osgood	31	STL	67		31	25	8	144	1604	1460	.910	2.24	3	9.7	3861				101	-1.15	0	0	0	10
10	Andrew Raycroft	23	BOS	57		29	18	9	117	1586	1469	.926	2.05	3	12.6	3420				83	24.24	0	2	2	0
11	Nikolai Khabibulin	31	TBL	55		28	19	7	127	1414	1287	.910	2.33	3	8.5	3274				101	-1.07	0	2	2	12
12	Martin Biron	26	BUF	52		26	18	5	125	1442	1317	.913	2.52	2	9.2	2972				97	3.42	0	2	2	10
13	Roberto Luongo	24	FLA	72		25	33	14	172	2475	2303	.931	2.43	7	20.9	4252				78	48.42	0	3	3	2
14	Patrick Lalime	29	OTT	57		25	23	7	127	1334	1207	.905	2.29	5	7.2	3324				107	-8.20	0	2	2	17
15	Pasi Nurminen	28	ATL	64		25	30	7	173	1792	1619	.903	2.78	3	9.4	3738				108	-13.41	0	2	2	35
16	Miikka Kiprusoff	27	CGY	38		24	10	4	65	966	901	.933	1.69	4	8.4	2301				76	21.03	0	1	1	15
17	Manny Legace	30	DET	41		23	10	5	82	1019	937	.920	2.12	3	7.3	2325				90	8.75	0	0	0	0
18	Kevin Weekes	28	CAR	66		23	30	11	146	1652	1506	.912	2.33	6	10.2	3765				99	1.12	0	0	0	6
19	Rick DiPietro	22	NYI	50		23	18	5	112	1261	1149	.911	2.36	5	7.8	2844				100	0.30	0	2	2	22
20	Marc Denis	26	CBJ	66		21	36	7	162	1970	1808	.918	2.56	5	13.6	3796				92	13.44	0	2	2	10
21	Robert Esche	26	PHI	40		21	11	7	79	932	853	.915	2.04	3	6.2	2322				95	4.00	0	0	0	31
22	Dwayne Roloson	34	MIN	48		19	18	11	89	1323	1234	.933	1.88	5	11.5	2847				76	28.82	0	1	1	8
23	Olaf Kolzig	33	WSH	63		19	35	9	180	1958	1778	.908	2.89	2	11.3	3738				103	-5.63	0	1	1	6
24	John Grahame	28	TBL	29		18	9	1	58	664	606	.913	2.06	1	4.2	1688				98	1.13	0	0	0	4
25	Roman Cechmanek	32	LAK	49		18	21	6	113	1198	1085	.906	2.51	5	6.6	2701				106	-6.31	0	0	0	2
26	Tommy Salo	32	TOT	49		18	21	7	119	1160	1041	.897	2.56	3	5.3	2791				115	-15.69	0	1	1	2
27	Jean-Sebastien Giguere	26	MDA	55		17	31	6	140	1623	1483	.914	2.62	3	10.5	3210				97	4.54	0	2	2	4

Kipper was out of his mind awesome that season...

I guess I'm getting old.

[Moose75]

Loose thoughts on this, as I often think about this. I grew up between the two worlds, so to say.

I'll also preface this by saying I do not think, nor have I ever though that I am an expert, or good enough to be an NHL goalie. I'm just being realistic with what I have seen, and where I estimate it going.

While I do think the late 90's to early 00's was the era of the "big name goalies", this recent era (2005-2013) is probably the best. Think of the amount of times they have had to change goalie equipment to help "increase scoring". I sense the big equipment argument incoming, but there were much worse offenders in that era, and those guys still kinda sucked even while cheating (Snow). It was a simpler game then. You didn't have a dog pile of defenseman diving around the crease, colliding with goalies, and didn't have the opposing team descending down on goalies like the crows from The Birds.

People forget goalies like Roy, Hasek, and Belfour set the tone for the next generation. People studied their successes and grafted their best traits into the modern archetype of a goalie. Low-shot quality defensive systems that made some of these guys into the confident, big name goalies, most notably Brodeur, were made almost extinct by new rules set forth after the 2005 lockout, which is when goalies had to make major re-adjustments. 

For me, goalies like Kipper, Fleury, Luongo, and Lundqvist inspired the later half of the 2005-2013 goaltending era. Bigger, stronger, faster, more cerebral than most of the 90's/00's guys. Their techniques more defined and practiced. Yet at the same time, retaining the spontaneity and instincts of Hasek and Roy. The game adapted around having a big number one goalie, then eventually was changed to work around that. The 2013-present game is so much more intense, fast, and mentally draining, we've seen the big number one goalies slow down in terms of success. Goalies like Niemi, Leighton, and other middling goalies getting to the cup showed impressionable GM's they didn't need sign an expensive big number one, and could spend the money elsewhere to load up a team. In example: the recent Blackhawks model, or the recent Pittsburgh model with Murray. It became this weird hybrid period where teams still had their bonafide starters, but the young talent waiting in the wings was utilized more for various reasons. Instead of a classic backup goalie who played 5-15 games, you now needed a guy who would backstop you to precious wins/OT points on nights you needed to rest the number one guy. Now work loads are being lightened to 50-55 games to make room for the grind of the playoffs.

Now for this era. I think guys like Price, Quick, and Holtby have inspired goalies everywhere. You can't go to a rink anymore without watching a clone of one of these goalies. Carey Price has been described as a goalie coach's dream. Unfortunately, this has lead to the current clod of faceless, mechanized goaltenders who are too focused on specific techniques like RVH and use it like a crutch in their game. Guys tend to go to general areas now instead of to the puck since they practice it that way a million times a summer. Sure some of these modern NHL guys can win a cup and put up solid numbers, but no one can really say who is better, or if they have staying power in the NHL. Goalies train so much on technique from a young age now that it has become more mechanical than athletic.

Watch a guy like Thatcher Demko, billed to be a franchise savior yet in every NHL showing yet (albeit behind the Canucks...) I've noticed that whenever a play turns broken, or scrambled, he has no response other than to drop, spread, and hope being 6'4'' is enough to get a piece. It's like watching a robot get tripped up because something gets behind its coding. Pure technique cannot carry a goalie, especially with how hectic the game is right now. They need instincts, or "battle" as the buzzwords call it. I'm not saying flop around like a fish, but be able to react on a play. That's why guys like Luongo, Fleury, and Lundkvist are still kicking; the right balance of technique and instinct. It's also why I don't see many names staying relevant like those guys, or even living up to billed potential. Also,  goalie coaches have taught guys so well that technique can be a facade for skill, which is why you see so many guys come in to the pros, but never establish themselves for more than a few years.

The thing that concerns me is the isn't a next wave of namesake guys still. There are unique guys now like Vasilevskiy and Korpisalo that I love to analyze and hope become that, but my list gets shorter every year. As talented as they are, guys like Hart, Demko, Gillies, even a few NHL guys like Murray, Gibson, I just don't see anything other than another goalie to fill the bill. I hope I'm wrong on those accounts, by the way.

TL;DR: word salad, grammatical errors, generalizations, lackluster articulation, etc...

[coopaloop1234]

17 minutes ago, Moose75 said:

Now for this era. I think guys like Price, Quick, and Holtby have inspired goalies everywhere. You can't go to a rink anymore without watching a clone of one of these goalies. Carey Price has been described as a goalie coach's dream. Unfortunately, this has lead to the current clod of faceless, mechanized goaltenders who are too focused on specific techniques like RVH and use it like a crutch in their game. Guys tend to go to general areas now instead of to the puck since they practice it that way a million times a summer. Sure some of these modern NHL guys can win a cup and put up solid numbers, but no one can really say who is better, or if they have staying power in the NHL. Goalies train so much on technique from a young age now that it has become more mechanical than athletic.

I always like to bring up Martin Jones in this scenario.

The guy has been lucky to have had access to pro level goaltending coaching from a very young age. (dad was a part of the Canucks organization). He's been coached heavily since very young and it shows. He's an extremely proficient goaltender and can look super robotic when playing.

My favourite anecdote about Jones is that he spends a good amount of his summer attending "drop-in" games solely to work on his battle and desperation side of his game. And we all know the cluster fuck that is drop in hockey.

What makes that tidbit even more interesting is that it's a notable thing to begin with. The usual defacto for goaltending is coaching technique into your game, not the other way around.

[stackem30]

I won't get into the "best" conversation, as I think it's too hard to compare guys from different eras. But it's absolutely my favorite era. Those 2000 and 2001 years were pretty magical for me — the Devils (and Marty) were amazing, and I was at that perfect age (12 and 13) where everything is just so... cool and exciting. 

1. The goalies themselves were, obviously, phenomenal. Roy! Hasek! Brodeur! Richter! Beezer! Belfour! CuJo! Hell, I even loved some of the "lesser guys" (hardly) like Kolzig, Irbe, Tugnutt Nabakov, Lalime, Theodore, etc.

2. The gear was great, and it was diverse. So many companies, so many of them trying new things (for better or for worse).

3. Style is the thing I miss the most. Almost every single goalie played a style that you could immediately recognize as their own. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with how systemic today's position is, but to my eyes, it's far less entertaining to watch.

Those early 2000's will always be special to me. It's nice to see that it's not just pure nostalgia on my part. 

[Mike24]

I’m a 90s guy but there was carry over into the early 2000s. @stackem30 you are right the amount of different companies of gear guys used, colored gear.different styles.   It was great now it’s robotic.  Don’t get me wrong there are some freakish athletes playing the position today.  But it just lacks originality to me.  

[MTH]

I think any goalie from today taken by a Delorean to an earlier time would simply dominate. Evolution of the coaching and the athletes.

Why I said era. Just a period when originality was still a thing and the game was at it's peak in popularity.

Sports to me has changed. It's like Moneyball has been used in every sport - why not? - and sucked the fun out of them. Football still has the ability to not be as calculated. It always tries, but fads come and go (wildcat). Hockey and goalies have all become so good that it's boring.

Imagine Dom Hasek playing in the NHL today? Impossible now due to his style and all - but a player with such a unique flair.

[MTH]

18 hours ago, Moose75 said:

Goalies like Niemi, Leighton, and other middling goalies getting to the cup showed impressionable GM's they didn't need sign an expensive big number one, and could spend the money elsewhere to load up a team. In example: the recent Blackhawks model, or the recent Pittsburgh model with Murray.

NHL goalies are the same as NFL kickers.

Run through whoever until you catch a hot one. Then run him until cools off and find another guy who is hot.

NFL kicker misses 2 field goals in a game? Later bro. Bring in the 10 decent guys who are looking for jobs on Monday to try out.

[Moose75]

47 minutes ago, MTH said:

NHL goalies are the same as NFL kickers.

Run through whoever until you catch a hot one. Then run him until cools off and find another guy who is hot.

NFL kicker misses 2 field goals in a game? Later bro. Bring in the 10 decent guys who are looking for jobs on Monday to try out.

Jonas Enroth two seasons ago. Had like three off starts, got waived, then Leafs signed the dude they just waived for Sparks.

[estogoalie]

I wrote in another thread that the biggest change around 2000 was the big improvements to gear, in particular leg pads and CA's, that allowed the butterfly to become the central move.  The "drop and block" is not exciting to watch, but it is effective. Before that, there was alot more acrobatics in goaltending. 

Looking at that 2000 list, they were all reactionary goalies, except Roy maybe who was pioneering the butterfly at the time. Back then you could watch a game and tell who was in net just by their moves...for sure Hasek, as well as Cujo... today it's hard to tell. 

[Moose75]

12 minutes ago, estogoalie said:

Back then you could watch a game and tell who was in net just by their moves...for sure Hasek, as well as Cujo... today it's hard to tell. 

There's still a lot of guys I can tell by the way they move: Price, Lundqvist, Fleury, Luongo, Vasilevskiy, Korpisalo, Rask, Quick, Holtby, Rinne, Niemi, Crawford, Varlamov, Hellebuyck, etc...

A lot of the new newer guys though, it can get confusing.

[coopaloop1234]

8 minutes ago, Moose75 said:

There's still a lot of guys I can tell by the way they move: Price, Lundqvist, Fleury, Luongo, Vasilevskiy, Korpisalo, Rask, Quick, Holtby, Rinne, Niemi, Crawford, Varlamov, Hellebuyck, etc...

A lot of the new newer guys though, it can get confusing.

Agreed. Though, the difference in style is more discreet than the early days. Most regular viewers can't tell, nor do they really care.

[Naz]

Hell, never mind how they moved.  You used to be able to tell who a goalie was by the way they wore and broke in their gear.  Just standing in the crease you knew who it was.

[jayluv54]

2 hours ago, MTH said:

NHL goalies are the same as NFL kickers.

Run through whoever until you catch a hot one. Then run him until cools off and find another guy who is hot.

NFL kicker misses 2 field goals in a game? Later bro. Bring in the 10 decent guys who are looking for jobs on Monday to try out.

I would actually compare them more to QB's.  A lot of goalies today are forced to play within a system created by the coaches, which forces guys to adapt and change their style.  Lets also also look at the pressure of being the starter and what that can do to a goalie or QB.  Think of all the backup QB's who get their shot after impressive backup performances and then fall flat.  Same thing happens to goalies.  I think it creates more turnaround then if you just develop a guy within the system.  

[Math.]

22 hours ago, Moose75 said:

A lot of the new newer guys though, it can get confusing.

Maybe they're still in the process of developping said style with the pace of play of the NHL.

I remember reading a VERY interesting article from Mike McKenna explaining the difference from the lower professional ranks to the show and how the speed of the play doesn't change much, but rather the creativity of the players and in turn the possible options a netminder's mind has to account for.  That's an excellent read btw, I suggest everyone takes a couple minutes and reads this article.

Maybe these new guys are just getting their brains used to this and are falling back to "saffer" goaltending until they acquire the proper experience to "get creative" with their own playing.  Be it conscious or not.

Just food for thoughts.

[Moose75]

1 hour ago, Math. said:

Maybe they're still in the process of developping said style with the pace of play of the NHL.

I remember reading a VERY interesting article from Mike McKenna explaining the difference from the lower professional ranks to the show and how the speed of the play doesn't change much, but rather the creativity of the players and in turn the possible options a netminder's mind has to account for.  That's an excellent read btw, I suggest everyone takes a couple minutes and reads this article.

Maybe these new guys are just getting their brains used to this and are falling back to "saffer" goaltending until they acquire the proper experience to "get creative" with their own playing.  Be it conscious or not.

Just food for thoughts.

Interesting. I remember reading a Bernier interview a while ago (sorry I can't find the source) that talks about something similar. Boiled down to him staying back more in the AHL because there's more chaos, and trying to adjust to the top of the crease in the NHL because it's more precise. 

[MTH]

I know this exact issue.

When I play A league and when I play down in the C league. I have to adjust my (crap-tastic) game.

I'm just like the pros...

[raucebyalien]

Just found this video; if the 2000s was the best mix of butterfly and athleticism - was the 80s the worse in terms of goaltending vs the talent shooting at them??

[Moose75]

2 hours ago, MTH said:

I know this exact issue.

When I play A league and when I play down in the C league. I have to adjust my (crap-tastic) game.

I'm just like the pros...

Same. There's a team in my tier that is like tier 3 skill at tier 1 speed. They are always my kryptonite. 

[WillyGrips13]

Personally I feel goalies now are better across the board than ever before. There’s less drop off from starters to backups. I think the position is so well coached from an early age now. The bigger kids are playing the position and the smaller kids are weeded out the higher up the ranks you go. Also kids choose the position now as opposed to being made to play goal by the older, bigger, stronger more alpha kids like in previous generations. So bigger guys who are better athletes and are better coached are making the position very strong. The “style” differences are mostly gone because the position is coached as a science now. There’s a solution for every situation and there’s less deviation from that from guy to guy. 

Also the guys who make it are the ones who learn and understand that technique and fundamentals can only take you so far. The true pros have all that but also are excellent at reading the play and having the ability to make saves when technique won’t help but instead improvisation is all that would work. 

[aircanuck]

Agreed, it is definitely coached to a science. Even with the new technique that every goalie seems to mirror, these young folks playing the position are superior athletes in every regard when compared to the previous generations. That's great that Eddie the Eagle ran triathlons back in the day, but position-specific training that athletes receive now is incredible and would leave previous generations far behind. Now ask me which generation I'd prefer to watch, that's a different story. 

[MTH]

On 10/5/2018 at 3:57 PM, raucebyalien said:

Just found this video; if the 2000s was the best mix of butterfly and athleticism - was the 80s the worse in terms of goaltending vs the talent shooting at them??

I'd agree. Such an odd time period for goalies then.

[goalie381]

On 10/3/2018 at 3:03 PM, stackem30 said:

1. The goalies themselves were, obviously, phenomenal. Roy! Hasek! Brodeur! Richter! Beezer! Belfour! CuJo! Hell, I even loved some of the "lesser guys" (hardly) like Kolzig, Irbe, Tugnutt Nabakov, Lalime, Theodore, etc.

2. The gear was great, and it was diverse. So many companies, so many of them trying new things (for better or for worse).

3. Style is the thing I miss the most. Almost every single goalie played a style that you could immediately recognize as their own. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with how systemic today's position is, but to my eyes, it's far less entertaining to watch.

In this time too, goalies wore their gear for at least two seasons. It was always somewhat disappointing to see the same pads at the start of the season. Then you look at guys like Irbe who did all his own repairs (or so I read somewhere).

As far as the science and coaching, I don't even know if all NHL teams even had goalie coaches back then, at least not full time, maybe someone knows this a little more for sure than I?

[stackem30]

13 minutes ago, goalie381 said:

In this time too, goalies wore their gear for at least two seasons. It was always somewhat disappointing to see the same pads at the start of the season. Then you look at guys like Irbe who did all his own repairs (or so I read somewhere).

As far as the science and coaching, I don't even know if all NHL teams even had goalie coaches back then, at least not full time, maybe someone knows this a little more for sure than I?

As far as I know, most teams employed a full-time goalie coach by the early 2000's, if not every single team. I believe a lot of teams had them in the 90's, too.

[MTH]

Irbe was famous for keeping his gear alive.

I think a ton of guys repaired their gear though. Belfour's used stuff is something else to look at. So custom modded.

[HP29]

On 10/5/2018 at 3:57 PM, raucebyalien said:

Just found this video; if the 2000s was the best mix of butterfly and athleticism - was the 80s the worse in terms of goaltending vs the talent shooting at them??

bwahahahaha, love that one on Whitmore