Attack of the Clones

[dualshowman]

Five pages of this thread and no one brought up this:

As 'kids', we all nearly passed out when we saw Moog's vintage-inspired Vaughn setup - incredibly meta less than a decade after colors on goalie equipment become ubiquitous. Clone? Copy? Theft? Unethical business practice?  Pfffft... These are the shit, plain and simple.

We're not talking about Monet or Rembrandt or Basquiat, we're talking about curves, lines, slashes, and triangles on a goalie pad. Is it ALWAYS plagiarism that we've all taken words and put them in the same order that someone has probably done prior? Perhaps a company should shy away from branding equipment with any manufacturer's name, but "graphics"?... Is anyone really losing sleep over this?

How about this one?: https://kenesky.com/retro-pads.php

Edited September 29, 2018 by dualshowman

[ULTIMA]

On 9/28/2018 at 8:48 PM, dualshowman said:

Five pages of this thread and no one brought up this:

As 'kids', we all nearly passed out when we saw Moog's vintage-inspired Vaughn setup - incredibly meta less than a decade after colors on goalie equipment become ubiquitous. Clone? Copy? Theft? Unethical business practice?  Pfffft... These are the shit, plain and simple.

We're not talking about Monet or Rembrandt or Basquiat, we're talking about curves, lines, slashes, and triangles on a goalie pad. Is it ALWAYS plagiarism that we've all taken words and put them in the same order that someone has probably done prior? Perhaps a company should shy away from branding equipment with any manufacturer's name, but "graphics"?... Is anyone really losing sleep over this?

How about this one?: https://kenesky.com/retro-pads.php

Not sleep, money. And that's what it really comes down to.

[TheGoalNet]

1 hour ago, ULTIMA said:

Not sleep, money. And that's what it really comes down to.

Exactly. 

@dualshowman - If your livelihood was coming up with pad graphics that made pads more aesthetically pleasing to boost your company's sales and Don Simmons copied all your designs, you'd be annoyed.

As a consumer, you personally may not care who did it first and just want an Ice Berg graphic at a price you can afford. That's your opinion and it's fine.I love everyone's honesty. But is hockey is a business people are not creating cool equipment because they are our friends. They make the coolest gear possible so we all buy it. It's lame when people shamelessly copy. 

[dualshowman]

4 hours ago, ULTIMA said:

Not sleep, money. And that's what it really comes down to.

2 hours ago, TheGoalNet said:

Exactly. 

@dualshowman - If your livelihood was coming up with pad graphics that made pads more aesthetically pleasing to boost your company's sales and Don Simmons copied all your designs, you'd be annoyed.

As a consumer, you personally may not care who did it first and just want an Ice Berg graphic at a price you can afford. That's your opinion and it's fine.I love everyone's honesty. But is hockey is a business people are not creating cool equipment because they are our friends. They make the coolest gear possible so we all buy it. It's lame when people shamelessly copy. 

I'm not going to excuse what anyone can clearly see is copying, nor am I challenging opinions. I have never really thought about pad graphics as a major selling point, but I can understand how they may be for a number of folks. I do not like the phony version of anything, so I can draw from that well if I wanna place myself in the 'annoyed' camp. The bummer with buying copy-brands is that it's a phony version, but maybe that lower price made it easier for supportive parents to get their little girl or boy into being a goalie Maybe those kids just had to have some cool graphics - I have to find the good in this, and if it's only this, then I'm fine with it.

I never have once given thought about cross-shopping based on graphic design, but I do give thought to cross-shopping build quality and materials, for example.  I strongly believe that true theft in design extends beyond the aesthetic aspects and largely encompasses the technological features, but even those features quickly become ubiquitous. The 'knee stack', for example - who may we credit that game-altering gem too? Someone's R&D forever changed the position with this (perhaps obvious?) invention and every manufacturer benefits. 

If a line is drawn at "copying graphics", how many lines do we draw before we get to the way a pad looks? 

[TheGoalNet]

1 hour ago, dualshowman said:

I'm not going to excuse what anyone can clearly see is copying, nor am I challenging opinions. I have never really thought about pad graphics as a major selling point, but I can understand how they may be for a number of folks. I do not like the phony version of anything, so I can draw from that well if I wanna place myself in the 'annoyed' camp. The bummer with buying copy-brands is that it's a phony version, but maybe that lower price made it easier for supportive parents to get their little girl or boy into being a goalie Maybe those kids just had to have some cool graphics - I have to find the good in this, and if it's only this, then I'm fine with it.

I never have once given thought about cross-shopping based on graphic design, but I do give thought to cross-shopping build quality and materials, for example.  I strongly believe that true theft in design extends beyond the aesthetic aspects and largely encompasses the technological features, but even those features quickly become ubiquitous. The 'knee stack', for example - who may we credit that game-altering gem too? Someone's R&D forever changed the position with this (perhaps obvious?) invention and every manufacturer benefits. 

If a line is drawn at "copying graphics", how many lines do we draw before we get to the way a pad looks? 

Yes, that’s a tough point to draw the line on. Patents somewhat help draw the line by defining what’s unique and what’s not. If it’s not patentable, it’s essentially the first interaction of a trend? But again, there’s so much grey area there 

I appload the hell out of Simmons for making gear in Canada at a reasonable price. It’s shame they don’t take a different angle with their marketing and graphics. As an example, in my head McKenney does this better than Simmons

[Puckstopper]

On 6/26/2018 at 10:51 PM, southpawtendy48 said:

Good read. Really opened my eyes in this particular topic; does this look familiar to you?

What’s sickening is battram actually does amazing custom designs. Cheaper gear or not it’s pretty immature to do.

On 7/25/2018 at 11:37 AM, TheGoalNet said:

On 7/2/2018 at 10:30 AM, TheGoalNet said:

@Chenner29 with the eyes on this 

I definitely have bigger issues with the first two sets of pictures that I do the third.  If I saw the black and white set of gloves at the rink and wanted a pair I'd probably end up buying them from GoalieMonkey and CCM would end up with some money in their pockets anyway.   I guess the fact that Scott B. isn't trying to pass the work off as his own is why it annoys me less.   The Kenesky and the other Battram sets really bother me.   As others have said, to each their own, but I know both shops are capable of doing better work than that.

On a related note, both the Vaughn XP set and the Smith set they supposedly copied look an awful lot like a custom graphic I had Scott Battram do for me years before either line of pads launched.   Maybe I should call Mike Vaughn up and demand free gear for copying my "Fang" graphic idea.  Or maybe I'll just accept that fact that sooner or later graphics may overlap.  At least until everyone starts screenprinting graphics like Bauer and all of us can have purple pads with unicorns farting rainbows...

Edited October 9, 2018 by Puckstopper

[TheGoalNet]

On 7/2/2018 at 10:30 AM, TheGoalNet said:

@Chenner29 with the eyes on this 

Was just thinking... Maybe Battram can make me some Vaughn clone pads and blocker with a 590 glove, Potvin graphic, with Heaton logos? Cause that would be amazing 

[TitanG]

9 hours ago, daffy said:

2 hours ago, cwarnar said:

Tampa goalies are the latest to hop on the train.  Word of mouth must be spreading

With all of the hype surrounding the new Kenesky C/As in the NHL and the fact that the pro's like them because they are derivative of the Reebok P1, and with the new Boddam C/A that looks like a Passau clone, what do people think? Is Kenesky less of a copycat because they made some modifications to the design or is it just as egregious as directly cloning another company's unit? Also, what does it say about a small company like Passau that their chest protector is so well renowned that other companies now seem to be copying it?

I don't mean to throw anyone under the bus, just thought it was interesting.

[dualshowman]

47 minutes ago, TitanG said:

With all of the hype surrounding the new Kenesky C/As in the NHL and the fact that the pro's like them because they are derivative of the Reebok P1, and with the new Boddam C/A that looks like a Passau clone, what do people think? Is Kenesky less of a copycat because they made some modifications to the design or is it just as egregious as directly cloning another company's unit? Also, what does it say about a small company like Passau that their chest protector is so well renowned that other companies now seem to be copying it?

I don't mean to throw anyone under the bus, just thought it was interesting.

This is overreaching directly into a specific technology. An homage is certainly a nice gesture, and I have no doubt that the Kenesky and Boddam C/As are well made and durable, but it would appear to be a pretty simple thing to change the features enough to make it less recognizable... but I guess the point is to make them look and feel as familiar as possible. As the owner of both a P1 C/A and 2nd Generation Passau C/A, I can attest to their respective qualities. The Passau unit is particularly fantastic. I can't imagine someone finding a single fatal flaw. The P1, however, has permitted me to understand what a broken rib feels like.

[TitanG]

2 minutes ago, dualshowman said:

This is overreaching directly into a specific technology. An homage is certainly a nice gesture, and I have no doubt that the Kenesky and Boddam C/As are well made and durable, but it would appear to be a pretty simple thing to change the features enough to make it less recognizable... but I guess the point is to make them look and feel as familiar as possible. As the owner of both a P1 C/A and 2nd Generation Passau C/A, I can attest to their respective qualities. The Passau unit is particularly fantastic. I can't imagine someone finding a single fatal flaw. The P1, however, has permitted me to understand what a broken rib feels like.

Yikes, was the P1 really worn down or just a flaw in the design? Makes me wonder how the pro's don't more often get broken ribs... Or maybe it goes undereported like concussions.

[dualshowman]

7 minutes ago, TitanG said:

Yikes, was the P1 really worn down or just a flaw in the design? Makes me wonder how the pro's don't more often get broken ribs... Or maybe it goes undereported like concussions.

Worn down and nowhere near as protective as a model you'd find a pro wearing. I used to wear my C/As really loose, low neck and almost nothing cinched. That changed soon after that shot I took to the ribs. 

My first real C/A was a Brown chest pad and Cooper SA95 arms The most mobile things I've ever had. Thread hijack over...

[Doobiesnax]

Speaking of clones.... i finished this bad boy on the weekend to forever sit on a studio monitor in my man cave....  Respect who ever painted this design for Ranford originally (pours out some maple syrup o n the ground)

[seagoal]

Loo

2 minutes ago, Doobiesnax said:

Speaking of clones.... i finished this bad boy on the weekend to forever sit on a studio monitor in my man cave....  Respect who ever painted this design for Ranford originally (pours out some maple syrup o n the ground)

Looks awesome!  Nice work.

Are you clear coating these, too?

[Doobiesnax]

13 minutes ago, seagoal said:

Loo

Looks awesome!  Nice work.

Are you clear coating these, too?

This one just got one shot of waterbased gloss clear from Createx as its just a wall hanger, not for use.  Ones that are getting ice time get the automotive grade clear.

[TheGoalNet]

8 minutes ago, Doobiesnax said:

This one just got one shot of waterbased gloss clear from Createx as its just a wall hanger, not for use.  Ones that are getting ice time get the automotive grade clear.

I have NO issues with you paining something for yourself!

[ULTIMA]

On 10/9/2018 at 11:21 AM, TheGoalNet said:

Was just thinking... Maybe Battram can make me some Vaughn clone pads and blocker with a 590 glove, Potvin graphic, with Heaton logos? Cause that would be amazing 

Ugh.....please let the Potvin crap just die?

[coopaloop1234]

On 12/3/2018 at 8:45 PM, ULTIMA said:

Ugh.....please let the Potvin crap just die?

Since it bothers you this much, I'm going to vote that we make sure it stay relevant forever.

[Korppi32]

On 10/19/2018 at 6:09 AM, TitanG said:

With all of the hype surrounding the new Kenesky C/As in the NHL and the fact that the pro's like them because they are derivative of the Reebok P1, and with the new Boddam C/A that looks like a Passau clone, what do people think? Is Kenesky less of a copycat because they made some modifications to the design or is it just as egregious as directly cloning another company's unit? Also, what does it say about a small company like Passau that their chest protector is so well renowned that other companies now seem to be copying it?

I don't mean to throw anyone under the bus, just thought it was interesting.

Passau C/A is similar to Sher-Wood 9980  Who was designer?

[TitanG]

28 minutes ago, Korppi32 said:

Passau C/A is similar to Sher-Wood 9980  Who was designer?

The Passau C/A may be similar to the Sher-Wood 9980, but the Boddam is an exact copy of the Passau from the images I've seen:

Passau:

Boddam:

Sher-Wood 9980:

[TheGoalNet]

23 minutes ago, TitanG said:

The Passau C/A may be similar to the Sher-Wood 9980, but the Boddam is an exact copy of the Passau from the images I've seen:

Passau:

Boddam:

Sher-Wood 9980:

I’m almost positive that the Passau team made this for Sher-Wood. So I can see why there’s some similarities 

[TitanG]

Just now, TheGoalNet said:

I’m almost positive that the Passau team made this for Sher-Wood. So I can see why there’s some similarities 

I was wondering the same thing. I seem to recall they made products for Sher-Wood, and they definitely made products for Warrior prior to Pete Smith being hired there.

[TheGoalNet]

Just now, TitanG said:

I was wondering the same thing. I seem to recall they made products for Sher-Wood, and they definitely made products for Warrior prior to Pete Smith being hired there.

They did some Sher-Wood product. Maybe @GoalieTimmy33 can confirm, but I believe they did the Tbo era stuff through buying TPS. I think after TPS @WGD took over. That was the Marty era 

[TheGoalNet]

Retro done right... made by the proper sources 

[ULTIMA]

21 hours ago, TheGoalNet said:

I’m almost positive that the Passau team made this for Sher-Wood. So I can see why there’s some similarities 

I can confirm this.

[GoalieTimmy33]

On 12/5/2018 at 4:52 PM, TheGoalNet said:

I’m almost positive that the Passau team made this for Sher-Wood. So I can see why there’s some similarities 

Yes we've made gear for Sherwood and Warrior, including sets worn by a number pro goalies (which is why we always laugh at the "why isn't Passau in the NHL?" question).