Attack of the Clones

[seagoal]

50 minutes ago, #16 said:

yeah but how many NHLers have coloured cages? lots. What do NHLers do when they get traded and dont have a design ready yet? they get 3 of their teams logos put on a blank mask. and can you really say that a blue stripe around the edge is a "personal" touch.

That is all true and besides the point of your question.

Allen's mask was a design by an artist painted by an artist. It's this, followed by a request to specifically copy it,  that conjures up ethical, and perhaps legal concerns.

Buying a cage or stickers and putting them on a blank mask isn't the same thing.

It is an interesting question if a design is so minimal and subtle that multiple designers come to it simultaneously.  Then what?

But when a design goes out there clearly in advance of a request to copy it, that's potentially problematic ethically and/or legally.

Edited December 26, 2018 by seagoal

[coopaloop1234]

2 hours ago, seagoal said:

The content is irrelevant.

Man, tell that to all the people putting racing stripes on their cars. 

They're in for a ride awakening.

Content is completely relevant. Basic design elements like flat borders, basic lines or any plain usage of basic elements shouldn't really be an issue. 

Making an argument for iconic or personal designs I'll go along with, but saying that copying Allen's mask is the same as potvins? Thata a bit of a stretch. 

[seagoal]

1 hour ago, coopaloop1234 said:

Man, tell that to all the people putting racing stripes on their cars. 

They're in for a ride awakening.

Content is completely relevant. Basic design elements like flat borders, basic lines or any plain usage of basic elements shouldn't really be an issue. 

Making an argument for iconic or personal designs I'll go along with, but saying that copying Allen's mask is the same as potvins? Thata a bit of a stretch. 

So you're making an argument saying some content is fair game to replicate because it is too general.

That's fine and the more specific lines in the sand we can draw to determine if scenarios A, B, C....are fair or not is crucial. 

My point is that if you have something specific to show an artist and you say " copy it" it doesn't matter what the content is.....until we have specific lines drawn in the sand like your rebuttal calls for.

Right now, we don't have those lines defined or drawn.

Allen's mask is interesting because it looks blank, but it's not. It's specificity is subtle and vague, the opposite of Potvin's.

The principle is the same: here's this mask. Copy it directly.  That's wrong.

I agree that principle calls for a sort of "public domain" debate. Like , say, only stripes down the face of a mask. That's "public" enough, I'd argue.

Allen's mask is more than that while apparently not with the specificity of Potvin's , in a way.

Move away from masks with this and onto pad graphics and we aren't dealing with the same amount of detail or specificity.  What then? We have to establish the greater principle first,  which is : asking to "copy this" .....right or wrong?

Then we hash out scenario specific details. 

Edited December 26, 2018 by seagoal

[TheGoalNet]

maybe the worst?

[motowngoalie]

3 hours ago, TheGoalNet said:

maybe the worst?

Are these all Kiver masks?

[TitanG]

42 minutes ago, motowngoalie said:

Are these all Kiver masks?

Yes. They'll copy anything -- the "Battram" of masks.

[motowngoalie]

58 minutes ago, TitanG said:

Yes. They'll copy anything -- the "Battram" of masks.

Wow. If I was Sportmask or Airxess, I'd be pretty pissed.

[stackem30]

If a mask company can't be bothered to create their own shell design, what else can't they be bothered to do, quality-wise?  (Honestly, designs don't need to be that different — a few small adjustments to contours/the holes is enough to be somewhat distinctive without altering the function/safety). Pure laziness, at the very least.

They may just earn themselves a reputation for being a knockoff company, and it might bite them in the ass. People may be cool with leg pads and gloves being a little "second-rate", but will they feel the same way about the thing protecting their faces/brains?

Never heard of them before today, FWIW.

Edited January 16, 2019 by stackem30

[cwarnar]

That's a gong show... Not even being shy about either...

In a fairness is there a more cloned mask then the 960/961???

[motowngoalie]

7 minutes ago, cwarnar said:

That's a gong show... Not even being shy about either...

In a fairness is there a more cloned mask then the 960/961???

True, and I'm guilty of it myself. My Protechsport that's shipping next week is a 961 copy. I just really like that shell design.

[TheGoalNet]

8 hours ago, cwarnar said:

That's a gong show... Not even being shy about either...

In a fairness is there a more cloned mask then the 960/961???

No, but that’s probably the safety issue. Instead of trying to make a better mask, everyone is trying to make a cheaper 960 mask 

[TitanG]

Gotta love the caption: "Nice clean look! In yet another ripped off graphic! Haha"

[stackem30]

He sounds like a dick. If I'm reading this right, he's being completely sarcastic about this being a ripped-off set.

Sure, they look like Vaughn stripes (particularly the placement of the stripe on the blocker, a la Martin Jones). But no, I don't think I (or many of the people in this thread) would go as far as to say someone's "ripping off Vaughn" by creating pads/gloves with a singular, classic stripe. That's a very general look. But he's just using this particular post in an attempt to depict the accusation that he rips off designs as ridiculous, and without merit (it's not). He's blatantly ripped off far more specific graphics that are in no way universal.

Basically, I think he matched that comment with this particular picture to undermine the claims that he's ripping people off. I doubt he'd be so bold as to pair that sarcastic comment with a picture of some gear that clearly is a ripoff of someone else's work...

Edit: I just scrolled through his Instagram page (I don't have one) and when someone mentioned that one of his recent sets looked just like P2s, his response was "Thank you Captain Obvious." What a guy...

Edited January 21, 2019 by stackem30

[Max27]

On 1/21/2019 at 1:19 PM, stackem30 said:

He sounds like a dick. If I'm reading this right, he's being completely sarcastic about this being a ripped-off set.

Sure, they look like Vaughn stripes (particularly the placement of the stripe on the blocker, a la Martin Jones). But no, I don't think I (or many of the people in this thread) would go as far as to say someone's "ripping off Vaughn" by creating pads/gloves with a singular, classic stripe. That's a very general look. But he's just using this particular post in an attempt to depict the accusation that he rips off designs as ridiculous, and without merit (it's not). He's blatantly ripped off far more specific graphics that are in no way universal.

Basically, I think he matched that comment with this particular picture to undermine the claims that he's ripping people off. I doubt he'd be so bold as to pair that sarcastic comment with a picture of some gear that clearly is a ripoff of someone else's work...

He will pair his sarcasm comment of them not ripping off graphics with a set like these-

But not with these, literally a clone of the old V3 graphic
 

[TheGoalNet]

Why anyone would pick the V3 graphic is beyond me...

But here is a good Battram. I want flames and I don't want them to look like Brian's

[Teezle]

Brian's did a recreated graphic for me on my original GNETIK full set of the old Louisville Icecap graphic. It turned out fantastic, and I don't think that graphic (or the goalie division of the company) had been in business for years at that point. I don't feel bad about it at all, and if I recall correctly they made a point about only recreating graphics that were not commercially available anymore.

When I was first starting out, my parents got me some gear from Simmons because it was cheaper than the big-name brands at the time and hockey is expensive. I don't begrudge any parent who wants to go that route, though nowadays there are many more levels of non-pro gear than I think there were when I was a child, and also shops like Passau and Kenesky.

[Max27]

17 minutes ago, TheGoalNet said:

Why anyone would pick the V3 graphic is beyond me...

I dont think its that bad but idk why anyone would go out of their way to ask for it on a custom order 

[Naz]

Saw this just posted on the Simmons FB page

RETIREMENT SALE- ALL INVENTORY BEING LIQUIDATED. SALE AND BUSINESS ENDING AND CLOSING MAR.30/2019. THANKS FOR FORTY FOUR GREAT YEARS. 1975-2019. 
800-598-9298.

[jeff da goalie]

Just now, Naz said:

Saw this just posted on the Simmons FB page

RETIREMENT SALE- ALL INVENTORY BEING LIQUIDATED. SALE AND BUSINESS ENDING AND CLOSING MAR.30/2019. THANKS FOR FORTY FOUR GREAT YEARS. 1975-2019. 
800-598-9298.

Just saw that as well.  talk about clones.  I thought their gear was fine, but I hated their constant carping about off-shore gear.  "Buy ours, it's made in Canada" all the while ripping off other companies' designs (not just graphics, but actual pad designs).

[Aquilzz]

3 hours ago, jeff da goalie said:

Just saw that as well.  talk about clones.  I thought their gear was fine, but I hated their constant carping about off-shore gear.  "Buy ours, it's made in Canada" all the while ripping off other companies' designs (not just graphics, but actual pad designs).

My favourite marketing strategy from them was "will out-preform any other pro pad at half the price!" while they still had 5lbs of leather straps and a leg channel design older than some brands.

[DL42]

7 hours ago, jeff da goalie said:

....all the while ripping off other companies' designs (....but actual pad designs).

Thats actual not true, Pete Smith designed the Velocity while working at Don simmons , it would not have gain acceptance until a main company put it in main stream , when Mike VAughn hired Pete, the story is on GSBB somewhere.  

[ULTIMA]

9 hours ago, Naz said:

Saw this just posted on the Simmons FB page

RETIREMENT SALE- ALL INVENTORY BEING LIQUIDATED. SALE AND BUSINESS ENDING AND CLOSING MAR.30/2019. THANKS FOR FORTY FOUR GREAT YEARS. 1975-2019. 
800-598-9298.

[Puckstopper]

7 hours ago, DL42 said:

That's actually not true, Pete Smith designed the Velocity while working at Don Simmons , it would not have gained acceptance until a main company put it in mainstream  (one word), when Mike Vaughn hired Pete, the story is on GSBB somewhere.  

No, it IS true.  You've got one example of someone who designed but did not release an original pad while working there.  The simple fact is that Simmons were the biggest pack of knockoff artists on the market.  They were certainly not the only ones who'd buy another MFG's pad, deconstruct it and copy it part for part, but they were certainly the biggest and loudest. 

[jeff da goalie]

1 hour ago, Puckstopper said:

No, it IS true.  You've got one example of someone who designed but did not release an original pad while working there.  The simple fact is that Simmons were the biggest pack of knockoff artists on the market.  They were certainly not the only ones who'd buy another MFG's pad, deconstruct it and copy it part for part, but they were certainly the biggest and loudest. 

And I don't mind that they copied it.  That's for the other manufacturer to deal with.  it was the incessant carping about how the other manufacturers sucked and "we're better because we're made in Canada" crap that bothered me.  

[TheGoalNet]

Does anyone have a pic of the short lived Smith pads at Simmons? I think that would clear up the debate over the Velocity origins. The Simmons pad was a progression of his Vic pads, but not the Velocity.