NHL concerned by rise in goalie concussions

[aircanuck]

A rise in the number of concussions resulting from shots off the mask has prompted the #NHL to expedite expanded testing on goalie masks.

https://www.tsn.ca/nhl-concerned-by-rise-in-goalie-concussions-1.1193829

Bring back the Armadilla! 

[Moose75]

That cream colored foam appears to no longer be efficient with Shot impacts. Wonder how many of these guys who have suffered a concussion have cream foam still?

also I find it ironic they put a statement like this out after reducing protection for the chest and arms this season. 

[TitanG]

1 hour ago, Moose75 said:

That cream colored foam appears to no longer be efficient with Shot impacts. Wonder how many of these guys who have suffered a concussion have cream foam still?

also I find it ironic they put a statement like this out after reducing protection for the chest and arms this season. 

And only now saying they're expediting the process -- they were more concerned with getting equipment smaller to increase goal scoring than addressing the concussion issues that have existed for how long?? Was it in 2010 than Hiller was felled by a shot to the mask and had vertigo-like symptoms for several months? Why didn't they address it back then?

At least they are finally addressing it.

Also, maybe even more importantly than determining which manufacturer's make the safest mask, is to ensure proper fitment and wearing of the mask (and for that matter player helmets). The best mask isn't any good if it doesn't fit properly.

[TheGoalNet]

@Don Straus where you at

[Naz]

Perhaps if goalies first instinct with the butterfly was to NOT drop to their knees on every freakin' shot, they may take more of these pucks to the belly or chest......

Also, wear a proper fitting mask, and wear it properly (Matt Murray).

[TitanG]

10 minutes ago, Naz said:

Also, wear a proper fitting mask, and wear it properly (Matt Murray).

I think one of the goalies who wears his mask most "properly" is Ryan Miller. If you notice during games, he actually has to unbuckle one side to get his mask up unlike every other goalie who has a loose mask and can just move it up whenever (even with incidental contact a la Holtby). Miller also uses an elastic chin strap which I would assume helps keep the mask on during a collision.

[Moose75]

2 hours ago, TitanG said:

And only now saying they're expediting the process -- they were more concerned with getting equipment smaller to increase goal scoring than addressing the concussion issues that have existed for how long?? Was it in 2010 than Hiller was felled by a shot to the mask and had vertigo-like symptoms for several months? Why didn't they address it back then?

At least they are finally addressing it.

Also, maybe even more importantly than determining which manufacturer's make the safest mask, is to ensure proper fitment and wearing of the mask (and for that matter player helmets). The best mask isn't any good if it doesn't fit properly.

I'd be curious to see too. Seems like it's always the CCM or Pro's Choice crowd that gets the concussions. Not saying Bauer's hands are clean, just it seems to be more the other two. Players are mutants now in terms of strength, and their crazy flexs, stick profiles, and curves might have something to do with how hard the casual shots are now. 

If I recall, Hiller has one of those fancy Swiss masks with Maltese foams. I wonder if the shape of the goalie shell needs updating?

I remember Crawford getting domed in a playoff game, falling on his ass, then struggling to regain his footing. I know from a Chicago friend that the rumor is his current concussion is not on-ice related.

[TitanG]

16 minutes ago, Moose75 said:

I'd be curious to see too. Seems like it's always the CCM or Pro's Choice crowd that gets the concussions. Not saying Bauer's hands are clean, just it seems to be more the other two. Players are mutants now in terms of strength, and their crazy flexs, stick profiles, and curves might have something to do with how hard the casual shots are now. 

If I recall, Hiller has one of those fancy Swiss masks with Maltese foams. I wonder if the shape of the goalie shell needs updating?

I remember Crawford getting domed in a playoff game, falling on his ass, then struggling to regain his footing. I know from a Chicago friend that the rumor is his current concussion is not on-ice related.

According to Goalie Gear Nerd on Twitter, 4 of the concussions were in CCM, 2 each in Bauer and PC. Hiller at the time of his injury didn't use Maltese. I have always wondered if the Harrison- (flatter) versus Wright-style (more ridges) forehead ridges has a real effect on energy transfer, or if materials choice and manufacturing method are more important to protection. As well, we have the issue of mask foams, and obviously Bauer is leading the way in terms of OEM foam design. Maltese and now EcoProFoam are also really pushing the limits, and I am pleased that OTNY makes their masks with those alternative foams as well. I also wonder if something like the Onezee (one piece mask) would help reduce energy transfer to the head and would be interested to see what the NHL's testing would say. I think masks are one of the least focused on by the big OEMs and deserves more attention.

[Don Straus]

1 hour ago, TheGoalNet said:

@Don Straus where you at

Right here! lol

A topic that is long overdue for a solution. I really wish that the mask industry put as much thought and effort into updating their wares as the pad/body armor folks have. The mask hasn’t changed much at all in over 30 years. It wasn’t up to the task then, and still isn’t. 

It isn’t about adding a ‘pinch of this’ and a ‘splash of that’ to the shell. There is way more to it than that. It’s the entire concept of the mask that needs rethinking. Just not sure everyone will be willing to step away from what their childhood vision of a goalie should be. 

The ‘sensor in a headform’ thing was done in the 90s and created some great data. Not sure why it wasn’t implemented into the testing/certification process. 

It is no secret what hazards have always been present for goaltenders. Doesn’t matter if the new stick technology helps propel a puck to 110mph as opposed to 80mph decades ago. Goalies and their masks have always been behind the curve since day one. It’s a real life game of ‘rock/paper/scissors’ with life altering consequences. 

This is certainly not a poke against all of the manufacturers. I have seen and admired that craftsmanship and care some have put into their work. Some gorgeous, well crafted products built by skilled hands.

It’s time for a better mousetrap. 

[Lucky Pucker]

Hand to heart, @Don Straus, I saw this, and signed in just to “like” your post.

[Don Straus]

20 minutes ago, Lucky Pucker said:

Hand to heart, @Don Straus, I saw this, and signed in just to “like” your post.

Thanks @Lucky Pucker. I'm sure this is just going to be the tip of the iceberg! 

[TheGoalNet]

@Don Straus thanks for the insider insight 

[MTH]

On 10/20/2018 at 5:44 PM, Don Straus said:

Right here! lol

A topic that is long overdue for a solution. I really wish that the mask industry put as much thought and effort into updating their wares as the pad/body armor folks have. The mask hasn’t changed much at all in over 30 years. It wasn’t up to the task then, and still isn’t. 

30 years? Maybe more. The current mask is the same design as the Harrison/Dryden mask from the late 70s. Looking at 40 years now.

The shell still looks like the Jaques Plante design for the most part too. That's even older.

Goalie masks still have appearance as their No. 1 quality.

Why are they form fitting? Fiberglass.. still?

I'm puzzled why all the current work to redesign football helmets hasn't made it way to goalie masks. Even the slowest sport in the world has made a better mousetrap recently.

The F3 mask is what all the pros are going to now. Ditching the 'hockey style mask' already.

Work that onto a goalie helmet (not just a mask)...

[MTH]

But you can't paint that...

By work onto a mask - I mean the wire and spring design. Goalie helmets should incorporate a gap between the cage and the head to allow for compression and lower forces to the goalies face. Why fiberglass with foam directly against you head is the norm... I don't know.

It's like putting a piece of wood against you face and hitting the wood with a bat. Wouldn't it be better to leave a little space between the wood and you face? While the foam helps, the desired look a form fitting mask limits how much it can dissipate the force.

Goalie helmets should almost look like football helmets. Everyone is sad that the goalie gear is being made "too small" - meanwhile the piece on your noggin has no size restrictions and yet everyone is looking for a svelte ass lid.

I'd wear a NASA helmet if possible. Fire away! Nothing is getting to my melon.

[Colander]

19 minutes ago, MTH said:

11 minutes ago, MTH said:

By work onto a mask - I mean the wire and spring design. Goalie helmets should incorporate a gap between the cage and the head to allow for compression and lower forces to the goalies face. Why fiberglass with foam directly against you head is the norm... I don't know.

It's like putting a piece of wood against you face and hitting the wood with a bat. Wouldn't it be better to leave a little space between the wood and you face? While the foam helps, the desired look a form fitting mask limits how much it can dissipate the force.

Agreed, I never understood why the majority of goalies have  their mask set up to position all that semi-hard foam padding right against their face - that's "70's street hockey mask" philosophy.

I believe the solution, which I've discussed with  a number of goalies is basically a virtual spring system as shown above. The mask only rests on two places on the face:

1. On a custom made sweat band containing dual density foam, which essentially emulates the springs shown at the forehead in the pic above.

2. On the chin via chin cup (to be clear I men the "socket" piece of foam that your chin sit in that is connected by a strap to the sides of the mask ) with a slightly more resilient strap, the springs in the lower part of the mask shown above would be emulated.

I have implemented this system on my mask with good results

[ThatCarGuy]

1 hour ago, MTH said:

The F3 mask is what all the pros are going to now. Ditching the 'hockey style mask' already.

Work that onto a goalie helmet (not just a mask)...

I've taken hints from the RC (remote control) world. In order to have a nice, long life with your servos you have to soft mount them. I've taken bits of XPF and put it in between the plastic spacers for mounting the cage. Seems to work pretty well. No bent cage aside from where it was bent before the soft mounting.

[TheGoalNet]

Weird... this topic resurfaces and the NHL hasn’t don’t anything 

https://apnews.com/dca05dd0915f43dcb8ef40f24fd99e7e
 

[Big2]

Did you guys see Tim Thomas interview following his induction into the US Hockey Hall of fame? Post career issues due to concussions where pretty serious I agree a lot more should be done on absorbing the impact, most top of the line masks have  good shells.

[MTH]

TT was laughed at when he was trying out some interesting helmet and cage designs near the tail end of his career. Maybe he was doing what he could to stay in the game after having so many injuries to his brain?

His story is quite saddening. 

Yet, nothing has changed.

[MTH]

I'd love to discuss with TT what he was working on and what were the results. He had numerous helmets with the Stars and Panthers. I would have to assume he had some previous concussions he was trying to prevent from occurring again:

[bunnyman666]

8 minutes ago, MTH said:

I'd love to discuss with TT what he was working on and what were the results. He had numerous helmets with the Stars and Panthers. I would have to assume he had some previous concussions he was trying to prevent from occurring again:

I can tell you from first hand experience why Timmy was using the Bauer ti player cage on his Mage. That design is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO front-heavy. I had big time trouble keeping my Mage from wanting to tilt down. I may not have had tight enough straps for the back plate. But it would always want to dive on me. 

Tim was very much a tinkerer. Factory Mad’s pad design for the leg channel was made specifically for Tim’s tendency to tinker (did not mean for the alliteration), and he definitely spent every dime and then some of his gear allowance. A few of those cages shown were not standard issue, and I am certain Olympia Composites had quite the business in custom cages.  

On my new Victory helmet, I had about 1/4” of play at the top of my head. I added a 1/4” strip of dual density foam to the three top strips of foam and cinched the chin cup to kill off the play. It now doesn’t move.  Unfortunately I have been sick once again, but hope to test Friday. I do feel safe and secure in this helmet even before I tweaked the fit as it is a different approach to helmet building.

I wonder if an updated version of the Jofa 388 wouldn’t be one of the safer options. You can build suspension into the cage/mask and have the full head protection of a helmet. I do think a big portion of what is hurting goalies is the lack of multiple densities in the padding and just the fact that the helmets are so close-fit to the head. It’s just like when the NHL banned the “pro fit” CCM HT-2, which was really a helmet in name only, being that it was a small shell with thin padding. A majority of goalies essentially wear something closer to that with how thin the padding is and how closely the shell fits to the head.

[Netnewbie]

what about these?

https://qcollar.ca/products/q-collar

[Ross]

Has anyone tried using foam on the outside of a mask?  On the rest of our gear there is usually a layer of foam over top of the plastic, carbon, etc...

Here’s a study that tried it on football helmets https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4142580/

This was mentioned in the study https://www.guardiansports.com/football/caps/

[CJ Boiss]

2 hours ago, Ross said:

Has anyone tried using foam on the outside of a mask?  On the rest of our gear there is usually a layer of foam over top of the plastic, carbon, etc...

Here’s a study that tried it on football helmets https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4142580/

This was mentioned in the study https://www.guardiansports.com/football/caps/

Cushioning does more good when it's underneath a rigid shell, because the shell is able to disperse impact forces over a greater area of cushioning.

I'm sure adding additional padding to a helmet reduces impact forces, but putting it on the outside of a helmet is less effective than putting it inside.

[Scythe]

Why are the skaters still wearing what they do... some not even a shield. The mask should have way more padding inside, and what's the seperate back plate design all about? If one will look like an astronaut then so be it.