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Moose75

RVH under fire lately

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So the ever-popular RVH technique seems to have become the addiction/hard drug of the goaltending world: sure it feels cool to do, but then you get stuck doing it all the time, and it also hurts you and everyone around you.

I've noticed A LOT of bad angle RVH goals in what seems like 1-3 games a night this season (or one every game if you're Markstrom or Allen). I've also seen the controversy it generated due to the Canadian World Junior loss. It's come under fire from goalie coaches and even regular joes who recognize it's now an issue. It is very clearly costing teams games at this point. 

One thing I've always noticed about using RVH is the strain it places on your hips, quads, and hamstrings. Could RVH becoming more a "technique" than a reaction be a cause of more frequent injuries as well? The increase in goalie injuries the last three years, around the start of it's overuse and popularization, has me wondering if there's something to my suspicions. 

Any goalie coaches on here have any advice or ideas of what can be done to change this trend? I remember when VH became overused, but not like this.

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I remember when VH became overused and you saw pretty much the same articles.  Once a technique becomes common, shooters figure out ways around it.  So soon, goalies will be staying up on the bad angle goals and shooters will try stuffing it more instead of going high.  It's a constant game of cat and mouse, and unlike Tom and Jerry, sometimes the cat wins.

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Future Pro / Steve McKichan have been all over this. I fully appreciate guys are getting burned on it, but no one seems to abandon it.

I am curious if he is "right" or if not being privy to 1 to 1 conversations, it looks worse than it is. Beniot Allaire tells Hank to play deep in his net. You'd never teach a kid that. It would be easy to watch any goal Hank gets beat for playing too dip and rip on him

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When all goalies play exactly the same - like robots - shooters know their tendencies without ever seeing the goalie play.

Somewhere he's laughing...

Hasek.jpg

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Haha I remember Keeks used to be all over the VH on the GSBB too (I believe he called it 'dying in the pie'!) - I'd imagine his point then was similar to the one he's now making about RVH: That its a useful tool, but one that tends to get overused - even by pros - and accordingly leads to unnecessary goals against. Latest example being Delia in OT last night - Forsberg was cutting to the net on the RW, Delia moved to go into RVH a bit too early, Forsberg read it and sniped him over the shoulder. 

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9 minutes ago, raucebyalien said:

Haha I remember Keeks used to be all over the VH on the GSBB too (I believe he called it 'dying in the pie'!) - I'd imagine his point then was similar to the one he's now making about RVH: That its a useful tool, but one that tends to get overused - even by pros - and accordingly leads to unnecessary goals against. Latest example being Delia in OT last night - Forsberg was cutting to the net on the RW, Delia moved to go into RVH a bit too early, Forsberg read it and sniped him over the shoulder. 

I was about to bring up that goal against Delia last night. That was a poor use of RVH. 

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I think the RVH has a place in the toolbox, it has just become overused. Standing tall on a bad angle still has its place in the toolbox, and dammit, so does stacking the pads. Diversify that toolbox constantly, but don't start relying on one tool all the time. 

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Suits me fine that RVH is being criticized; now, instead of "looks like that guy never learned how and when to do RVH", people will say "what a pioneer, not using RVH! He's ahead of the curve!"

As a side project/experiment, I'm also trying to wait out this trend where goaltenders can catch pucks with their trapper.

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2 minutes ago, Lucky Pucker said:

As a side project/experiment, I'm also trying to wait out this trend where goaltenders can catch pucks with their trapper.

@Lucky PuckerYou and Lundqvist, real renaissance men. I'm thinking GQ side by side photoshoot now. Ya dig?

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Just now, aircanuck said:

@Lucky PuckerYou and Lundqvist, real renaissance men. I'm thinking GQ side by side photoshoot now. Ya dig?

Yeah, I'm down with that. Of course my suits are like my gear: stock, off the rack, and purchased at a discount. Hope that's not an issue...

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9 hours ago, Moose75 said:

One thing I've always noticed about using RVH is the strain it places on your hips, quads, and hamstrings. Could RVH becoming more a "technique" than a reaction be a cause of more frequent injuries as well? The increase in goalie injuries the last three years, around the start of it's overuse and popularization, has me wondering if there's something to my suspicions. 

I agree. Also goalies do so much moving around while down and I think that contributes to wear on their joints. A lot of the down movement is unnecessary. If there’s no one at all in the corner of the rink and you just directed a shot there, why are you doing a hard butterfly push to the post? Just get up and get to the post while standing while using an appropriate level of urgency.  

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It's an interesting point and one that I had first hand 2 games ago.  I've tried integrating more RVH into my game.  I usually utilized it on puck play behind the net or below the goal line.  But then I got cocky and starting cheating to it on those plays where guys are driving the net... Resulting in 2 ugly short side goals high.

Especially in the era of video study and metrics... Shooters have an easier time knowing tendancies.  Goalies will have to continue to evolve as well

Edited by cwarnar

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MTH technique? Eat more. If I can make myself 6'x4'... 

I'm starving!

Edited by MTH
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14 minutes ago, MTH said:

When all goalies play exactly the same - like robots - shooters know their tendencies without ever seeing the goalie play.

Somewhere he's laughing...

Hasek.jpg

YES!!! Could not agree more. Loved the InGoal mag article on Hasek's methods. I lived in Buffalo during his hay day and it was glorious. For those who haven' read it...

https://ingoalmag.com/analysis/new-aesthetics-of-goaltending-vol-4-haseks-genius-of-dynamic-space/

11 minutes ago, raucebyalien said:

That its a useful tool, but one that tends to get overused - even by pros - and accordingly leads to unnecessary goals against. 

Agreed with this as well... and likely any goaltending instructor would agree. Keep as many tools in your arsenal as possible... and hone the skill of reading a play and applying the right save selection for the situation. Personally I find playing a true RVH can be difficult w/ worn pegs. Good hard pushes end up knocking the net off.

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The good news for most of us in the levels we play at is there is a near 0 % chance shooters will be able to beat you over the shoulder like Kane or Crosby are doing. It still takes a damn good shot to be beaten like that and one 99% of players wouldn't be able to pull off. 

Edited by 1C5

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3 minutes ago, 1C5 said:

The good news for most of us in the levels we play at is there is a near 0 % chance shooters will be able to beat you over the shoulder like Kane or Crosby are doing. It still takes a damn good shot to be beaten like that and one 99% of players wouldn't be able to pull off. 

Interesting... I would say just the opposite. In Beer league guys get so much more time and space than NHLers... so the ability to size up and take a shot like that has a greater likelihood. 

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3 minutes ago, BadAngle41 said:

Interesting... I would say just the opposite. In Beer league guys get so much more time and space than NHLers... so the ability to size up and take a shot like that has a greater likelihood. 

Yeah I know what you mean but I was more talking about the recent Kane ridiculous backhand and the Crosby snipe from the goal line. 

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2 minutes ago, BadAngle41 said:

Interesting... I would say just the opposite. In Beer league guys get so much more time and space than NHLers... so the ability to size up and take a shot like that has a greater likelihood. 

Agree - at least in my limited experience, there are a few skaters in their late 20s-early 30s who are known to be able to put it where they want it, when they want it. Jerks.

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I will be honest, I am one the worst about over-using RVH. I use it often because it's just so effective at my level of play. I am considered one of the bigger goalies in JV hockey and this allows me to be a mostly butterfly goalie with quick hands. I do not fully understand the argument against RVH because it's never cost me a goal. I do need to work on my @MTH technique though.

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My 'argument' against it involves whatever physical costs are associated with using the technique: (1) often (2) at an age prior to complete physical development (3) at an age where it may increase recovery time (4) where it is inefficient and stamina-sapping without benefit.

1 hour ago, WillyGrips13 said:

I agree. Also goalies do so much moving around while down and I think that contributes to wear on their joints. A lot of the down movement is unnecessary. If there’s no one at all in the corner of the rink and you just directed a shot there, why are you doing a hard butterfly push to the post? Just get up and get to the post while standing while using an appropriate level of urgency.  

5 minutes ago, ThatCarGuy said:

I will be honest, I am one the worst about over-using RVH. I use it often because it's just so effective at my level of play. I am considered one of the bigger goalies in JV hockey and this allows me to be a mostly butterfly goalie with quick hands. I do not fully understand the argument against RVH because it's never cost me a goal. I do need to work on my @MTH technique though.

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1 hour ago, insertnamehere said:

I was about to bring up that goal against Delia last night. That was a poor use of RVH. 

That was more than misusing the RVH...I have no idea why he would even use it when Forsberg was still at the circle and then why he went down so early.  Forsberg had his man beat and was coming in 1 on 1, the other d-man was covering the pass. 

Easy for me to say, but I don't understand why he didn't play that like a break away where making the first move is the worst thing you can do.  Once he went down he was screwed.

His reaction says it all though, he knew he completely botched that.

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2 hours ago, jeff da goalie said:

I remember when VH became overused and you saw pretty much the same articles.  Once a technique becomes common, shooters figure out ways around it.  So soon, goalies will be staying up on the bad angle goals and shooters will try stuffing it more instead of going high.  It's a constant game of cat and mouse, and unlike Tom and Jerry, sometimes the cat wins.

I remember when the butterfly was overused and came under fire for exposing the top of the net.  

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2 hours ago, TheGoalNet said:

Future Pro / Steve McKichan have been all over this. I fully appreciate guys are getting burned on it, but no one seems to abandon it.

I am curious if he is "right" or if not being privy to 1 to 1 conversations, it looks worse than it is. Beniot Allaire tells Hank to play deep in his net. You'd never teach a kid that. It would be easy to watch any goal Hank gets beat for playing too dip and rip on him

I don't think we realize the speed at which an NHL play can happen and these guys are stuck trying to play the percentages.  Wrist shots are 85+mph, releases are a fraction of a second...a human being can't react that fast.  I don't think reacting to the puck a la Hasek is feasible anymore and I don't remember where, but I've heard Lundqvist talk about this.  They have to anticipate the shot by reading the puck on the stick to have a chance.  In situations where the puck is goal line level, reading the shot is more difficult.  Guys like Crosby and Kane who can back hand a shot 80mph and on a dime are going to score no matter what you do. 

The RVH may result in bad angle goals that look terrible, but who's counting how many saves are made from it like bang-bang plays to the front of the net where a goalie still on his feet gets burned?

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48 minutes ago, BadAngle41 said:

Interesting... I would say just the opposite. In Beer league guys get so much more time and space than NHLers... so the ability to size up and take a shot like that has a greater likelihood. 

When I skate as a forward in men's league, all I do is shoot from stupid angles. Even if I don't score, I've got the goalie (over)thinking every time I'm in that area.

And I think, like VH, when used appropriately it is quite effective. However sitting their like a lame duck when even the average chump can figure out how to find the holes is just asking for trouble.  

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