Lefevre going solo

[ThatCarGuy]

1 hour ago, ZeroGravitas said:

This sums up my experience. People who aren't interested in Vaughn from the get-go generally don't give it a second glance when they come into the store.

 

I wore Ventus pads for 1.5 seasons. Never again until they’re stiffer, don’t crack like SLR2 Pro Carbon, and don’t have a knee stack as flimsy as a piece of paper

[estogoalie]

Was I posting in Russian? Shit, I have to stop drinking vodka when I post. Or else it was Russian hackers. Either way it's bad news. Wait, why am I wearing an Adidas track suit and black leather dress shoes...?

[Puckstopper]

1 hour ago, MTH said:

Vaughn has what? 2 lines of gear but 700 different models in those lines. Is that the pro carbon SLR2? Rolls right off the tounge don't it? I don't even know what the Ventus line really is. And I'm on a goalie gear forum! If I were them, I'd just make the Velocity line the modern stuff and use a name like "Legacy" for all the gear that everyone loves. T5500, etc. God knows just about every kid is walking into the rink in a throwback model shoe these days. They could put so many iconic lines of gear under the Legacy name. Even do 'special releases' of beloved older lines. You could even make a third line of just fully custom gloves and call them 'Vaughn Custom'. Put a special logo on all that gear. We all love showing off custom stuff. Why make it look like standard stuff? Embrace it. Charge more than normal for them. Makes you look more like a baller now that it's overpriced some.

Mike Vaughn, hire this man!

[Chenner29]

11 minutes ago, estogoalie said:

Was I posting in Russian? Shit, I have to stop drinking vodka when I post. Or else it was Russian hackers. Either way it's bad news. Wait, why am I wearing an Adidas track suit and black leather dress shoes...?

Found the sleeper agent

Someone alert the FBI

[estogoalie]

10 minutes ago, Chenner29 said:

Found the sleeper agent

Someone alert the FBI

 

[dualshowman]

1 hour ago, ZeroGravitas said:

This sums up my experience. People who aren't interested in Vaughn from the get-go generally don't give it a second glance when they come into the store.

If a beer leaguer picks up the pad, they don't say, "Wow" like they do on with a current-gen EFlex, Warrior or Bauer pad, especially if they're coming from an older pad. There's just not much there to entice a beer leaguer to wear Vaughn beyond the chasing the feel that they may be used to with a older, softer pad.

One thing that I have noticed on Vaughn gear from C/As, to pads, to undergarments is that they are consistent in their use of materials and components of obvious quality. I cannot speak to whether they use brand-name Clarino, Jen-Pro, Velcro or Cordura in their top level gear, but the materials are more often than not very hard-wearing and free of visual defects when new. Plastic buckles, for example, are often from manufacturers that actually designed the part. The hook & loop material, the nylon wrist straps, the lacing, the bindings - all of them are of obvious quality. As a beer leaguer that is not interested in wearing holes into gear in a season or two, these characteristics of Vaughn gear are highly appealing to me. This also applies to Brian's gear and Lefevre-built gear I've used in the past. 

[estogoalie]

12 hours ago, Chenner29 said:

In response to your comment I bolded above - reminds me of how Brown disappeared from the league.  The gloves and pads fell off and he was only building C/As and pants, then gone from the league entirely.

When I think of big names not innovating, I also think of Brown. I'm a big fan of JB, and he's a great guy, was an honor to talk to him personally when I ordered some pads circa 2007. But he is literally still selling the same pads that are 20+ years old. Even when I bought a set in mid-2000's they were outdated. When I moved up to TPS R12's around 2010, I was stunned how much better/modern they were, ie: pads stayed 90° to the ice, no rolling, lighter, slimmer profile, better mobility, etc.

You can make the case Vaughn and Lefevere don't innovate much or push the envelope as much as say Smith or Brian's, but they still do move forward and modernize their pads, albeit in small incremental steps.  They may be a few years behind, but not 20+ so they won't end up like JB.  Some goalies don't like radical changes pushed too fast, so the "slow roll" of Vaughn and Lefevere is appreciated by many.

The last few season I was using Velo's and my son Eflex, and really I would say they are in the same "class", with just small differences/preferences between them. Somehow CCM/Lefevere does better with marketing/branding than Vaughn. Don't ask me why, like someone here said, there's plenty of NHL goalies and Cup-winning goalies wearing them, so it's not like they shouldn't have any less appeal than Eflex.

But if someone (*cough, cough, TGN*) likes to say good things about Lefevere and at the same time say negative stuff about Vaughn, I'd like to hear some specifics as to why exactly (?), because to me, there's not a huge difference, and it's just down to a marketing/branding/perception issue.

[TheGoalNet]

20 hours ago, keeperton said:

Would you care to elaborate on your opinion regarding your comment saying it's the least compelling? I don't inherently disagree, but I feel like that is kind of their thing.

My opinion is that Vaughn definitely doesn't push the envelopes, but are really entrenched with a lot of goalies when it comes to less visible gear (C/A and pants). I also think they could really push the SLR3, assuming it's a thing, to make it one of the most desirable pads on the market with just a couple of changes, strapping (weight, thinning the top, giving flex options) especially since the SLR2 has great.

My comments pertain to gloves and pads. I agree that Vaughn chest, pant, etc are staples and it's probably awhile before they are much effected

Here's how I see the issue...

Retail:

• 1 more brand to stock now
• Retails will probably not want to stock more inventory
• To keep inventory the same and accommodate another brand, that means smaller orders to other suppliers
• Full line hockey brands, like Bauer, CCM, etc, can make "bundling" deals with retailers. Buy 1,000 player sticks and we will give you a 10% discount on goalie gear
• True can play these pricing strategies out, Vaughn cannot
• True by Lefevre, at a minimum, will have a hot few years
• Between consumer demand and the pricing, shops will stock True
• The market is going more and more toward technology driven equipment
• Vaughn is the furthest behind in "first to market" innovations
• I've heard Vaughn in a PIA to work with
• What supplier do you drop or minimize? The one that is hardest to work with and has the least sexy product
• Less gear in stock, means less kids grow up wearing Vaughn and that will compound their issues long term

Pro:

• True will be hungry to grow their stable
• Although CCM goalies seem the most logical, CCM should have a game plan to make sure they don't lose all their guys
• Who has the next most similar product and lots of goalies in their product... Vaughn
• True's rep also used to be a Vaughn rep and knows all the guys

[keeperton]

Thanks for all the responses guys, lot of interesting points.

I'm genuinely super interested in Lefevre at this point, but I'm not anywhere close to needing new gear enough to justify it. Maybe around this time next year though I can reasonably justify it.

[mr_shifty1982]

23 minutes ago, keeperton said:

Thanks for all the responses guys, lot of interesting points.

I'm genuinely super interested in Lefevre at this point, but I'm not anywhere close to needing new gear enough to justify it. Maybe around this time next year though I can reasonably justify it.

I'd imagine prices coming down now with True taking over and pads being more accessible in retail. Should be interesting. 

[keeperton]

1 minute ago, mr_shifty1982 said:

I'd imagine prices coming down now with True taking over and pads being more accessible in retail. Should be interesting. 

I mean, it's not that I think they're too much higher than others since it's so marginal, it's mostly that I pretty much only buy top-end stuff and every brand is expensive lol.

I bet they'll probably come down a little to match the market, especially since they're no longer going to have to claw for each dollar.

[ser33]

13 часов назад estogoalie сказал:

Я писал на русском? Черт, я должен перестать пить водку, когда пишу посты. Или это были русские хакеры. В любом случае это плохие новости. Подождите, а почему я ношу спортивный костюм Adidas и черные кожаные классические туфли ...?

[ser33]

13 hours ago, estogoalie said:

Was I posting in Russian? Shit, I have to stop drinking vodka when I post. Or else it was Russian hackers. Either way it's bad news. Wait, why am I wearing an Adidas track suit and black leather dress shoes...?

 

I do not speak English and my browser automatically translates all the text into Russian. therefore, while I copy the text written via google translator, the browser has already translated your message into Russian))) but your version about "Adidas track suit and black leather dress shoes" I also really liked)))

[ArdeFIN]

I can only say from my Finnish viewpoint about markets and as a customer. But when I look into some big Finnish retailer like Hockey Base, there's the whole line of CCM, Bauer and Warrior these days. JR, Int, SR and Pro.

Then I look for the "other" brands. I find Vaughn in SR and Pro, the pricing is high from starting from SR not to mention the Pro. Some Brians gloves are there but I think those are just something that was available and are leftovers from that era. And also the pricing is high, no SR level gear at all.

While some appreciate quality and are ready to pay for it too, most of customers look to the price and what they get for their euros. And the brand for what it is worth. CCM is a big brand here, it sells for just that. Juniors want it and it's easy to go with it once dialed in.

Vaughn int gear is available here in Finland if you look for it but it's more of an effort to drive to a shop and try it on there. And afterall your junior says I wan't CCM or Warrior, it's cool and all the others have it too. Even Bauer is loosing in the juniors atleast from what I see at the ice.

Have say for Vaughn gear, I bought a SLR2 blocker in the winter and I got quite a big discount for it just by asking for the best price, so there might be big plus in the list price. But then again the list pricing is what we see in the webshops.

[TheGoalNet]

14 hours ago, mr_shifty1982 said:

I'd imagine prices coming down now with True taking over and pads being more accessible in retail. Should be interesting. 

Doubt that. If anything True pushes to keep the pro gear made in Canada, like their skates, and the prices stay the same or rise.

Lefevre is probably a 20 person company? There's not much efficiency or cost savings that True can share with Lefevre

[ArdeFIN]

Would True just add some overseas productlines to Lefevre selection and fill in the lower price point. Lefevre might need True to get that overseas production running as it was under CCM earlier.

[coopaloop1234]

10 hours ago, keeperton said:

I mean, it's not that I think they're too much higher than others since it's so marginal, it's mostly that I pretty much only buy top-end stuff and every brand is expensive lol.

I bet they'll probably come down a little to match the market, especially since they're no longer going to have to claw for each dollar.

Lefevre gear is 10%-12% more expensive than any other brand in Canuck land. That's not marginal...

16 hours ago, TheGoalNet said:

My comments pertain to gloves and pads. I agree that Vaughn chest, pant, etc are staples and it's probably awhile before they are much effected

Here's how I see the issue...

Retail:

• 1 more brand to stock now
• Retails will probably not want to stock more inventory
• To keep inventory the same and accommodate another brand, that means smaller orders to other suppliers
• Full line hockey brands, like Bauer, CCM, etc, can make "bundling" deals with retailers. Buy 1,000 player sticks and we will give you a 10% discount on goalie gear
• True can play these pricing strategies out, Vaughn cannot
• True by Lefevre, at a minimum, will have a hot few years
• Between consumer demand and the pricing, shops will stock True
• The market is going more and more toward technology driven equipment
• Vaughn is the furthest behind in "first to market" innovations
• I've heard Vaughn in a PIA to work with
• What supplier do you drop or minimize? The one that is hardest to work with and has the least sexy product
• Less gear in stock, means less kids grow up wearing Vaughn and that will compound their issues long term

Pro:

• True will be hungry to grow their stable
• Although CCM goalies seem the most logical, CCM should have a game plan to make sure they don't lose all their guys
• Who has the next most similar product and lots of goalies in their product... Vaughn
• True's rep also used to be a Vaughn rep and knows all the guys

While I think you're right about there being a "buzz" around the True/Lefevre gear when it comes to market, I think the price point as well as the sheer similarity to CCM gear will have retailers bringing in only a limited amount of inventory.

Reducing inventory on items you have a decent sales history on to just bring in a slight variant of an already existing line at a higher price point is a tough trade off. I'm sure they'll bring it in, but I'm also going to take a stab and say that the "market shakeup" that some people are expecting from these guys is a little overblown.

True will be a ongoing player in the game, but it will be from a legacy group much like Vaughn users. The Lefevre name doesn't mean much to little Johnny and the marketing power behind CCM is still going to be massive and majorly influential.

It'll be interesting to watch, but I don't think I'd b ready to conclude that True entering the market is the warning sign of the end of Vaughn.

Edit: The pro points you make are interesting. CCM/Lefevre gear has a wildly different feel than Vaughn. I don't think there will be much to pillage from that CCM didn't already do over the past years.

 

[TheGoalNet]

4 hours ago, ArdeFIN said:

Would True just add some overseas productlines to Lefevre selection and fill in the lower price point. Lefevre might need True to get that overseas production running as it was under CCM earlier.

Yes, that's exactly correct. See my post a couple pages back. Lefevre only having "pro gear" and made in canada is a really tough business. It does not match what consumers buy.

[estogoalie]

3 hours ago, coopaloop1234 said:

True will be a ongoing player in the game, but it will be from a legacy group much like Vaughn users. The Lefevre name doesn't mean much to little Johnny and the marketing power behind CCM is still going to be massive and majorly influential.

It'll be interesting to watch, but I don't think I'd b ready to conclude that True entering the market is the warning sign of the end of Vaughn.

Good point. CCM is a HUGE brand, and with Lefevere riding on top of that name, it was a power-horse. Younger kids might not know Lefevere, and True, to date, is not very big. They are kind of a "quirky" brand, maybe like Warrior before Smith got on board. True is going to have to do some heavy marketing and endorsements to appeal to the younger crowd. Forget Vaughn, the big question is how much of the goalie market CCM will be able to hold on to and how many will move to True? I would guess True/Lefevre will come out something like Warrior/Smith, appealing to those "in the know", and CCM will keep it's mass market appeal, and appeal to those who like to go with big brand names.

[motowngoalie]

Another aspect of this whole thing is the amount of money True can afford to throw at this project. True is still a niche hockey company, but they're well established in golf, lacrosse, and baseball already.

Similar to the Warrior/NB ownership, they enter the goalie market as one of the biggest companies already, dollar wise.

[Chenner29]

11 hours ago, estogoalie said:

Good point. CCM is a HUGE brand, and with Lefevere riding on top of that name, it was a power-horse. Younger kids might not know Lefevere, and True, to date, is not very big. They are kind of a "quirky" brand, maybe like Warrior before Smith got on board. True is going to have to do some heavy marketing and endorsements to appeal to the younger crowd. Forget Vaughn, the big question is how much of the goalie market CCM will be able to hold on to and how many will move to True? I would guess True/Lefevre will come out something like Warrior/Smith, appealing to those "in the know", and CCM will keep it's mass market appeal, and appeal to those who like to go with big brand names.

At the end of the day, for the average viewer it will depend on the athletes they are able to land. 

Someone earlier suggested Carter Hart, Connor Helleybuck, and Frederik Andersen. That is as ideal a group as any. You’ve got a promising young guy, the 2019-2020 Vezina winner, and the starting goalie for arguably the biggest market team in the league.

This is going to be different than when Warrior launched their line. IIRC, at the time Warrior did not have a true star caliber goalie in their stable...Jonas Gustavson, Tim Thomas, and Dwayne Roloson had their gear early on. 

[Korppi32]

On 10/2/2020 at 10:48 AM, ArdeFIN said:

I can only say from my Finnish viewpoint about markets and as a customer. But when I look into some big Finnish retailer like Hockey Base, there's the whole line of CCM, Bauer and Warrior these days. JR, Int, SR and Pro.

Then I look for the "other" brands. I find Vaughn in SR and Pro, the pricing is high from starting from SR not to mention the Pro. Some Brians gloves are there but I think those are just something that was available and are leftovers from that era. And also the pricing is high, no SR level gear at all.

While some appreciate quality and are ready to pay for it too, most of customers look to the price and what they get for their euros. And the brand for what it is worth. CCM is a big brand here, it sells for just that. Juniors want it and it's easy to go with it once dialed in.

Vaughn int gear is available here in Finland if you look for it but it's more of an effort to drive to a shop and try it on there. And afterall your junior says I wan't CCM or Warrior, it's cool and all the others have it too. Even Bauer is loosing in the juniors atleast from what I see at the ice.

Have say for Vaughn gear, I bought a SLR2 blocker in the winter and I got quite a big discount for it just by asking for the best price, so there might be big plus in the list price. But then again the list pricing is what we see in the webshops.

Bauer and CCM are the two big goalie brands in Finland. Different area, different #1 brand. Warrior is third overall (somewhere even bigger) but sadly their lines haven´t changed much and it isn´t new, most innovative and fresh brand anymore, which True can be.  I would say Bauer is most popular in age group 6-10 and CCM in 10-15. Vaughn JR- pads are 100€ more expensive than bigger hockey brands and it is too much for regular hockey dad.  Older juniors are also more intent what brand they want to use, so there might be some Vaughn users. 

 

There is only niche market for made in Canada gear. It is not good business, it is something what can make shop little special and helps with custom orders. Often you end up sell those less than what you have paid. 

[ULTIMA]

On 10/1/2020 at 2:20 AM, Chenner29 said:

Personally, I was a Vaughn guy from V2 to V6.  Aside from a brief foray into the small market manufacturers with Kenesky, I've pretty much favored a Lefevre designed product since then (588 RPM, Eflex 1, Eflex 4, 20.1). 

I'd say my gear preferences have changed a bit...but really, the Vaughn gear doesn't excite me anymore.

Personal opinion here -

The core issue is that Vaughn gear is designed and built to have great "off-the-shelf" appeal.  Meaning, the glove closes easily.  Pads, pants, and chest/arm units flex effortlessly and everything moves extremely well with the body.  The gear is great for a reactionary Jonathan Quick type athlete and the weekend warrior goalie for these exact reasons.

However, this design philosophy does not mesh well with most pro clients, and I believe it breaks down as such:

1. As the position has become increasingly technical, most pro customers pursue gear that performs the same out of the box until the end of its lifetime - ie. input x = output x.  And when that equation is no longer true, a new set is being popped out of the box at practice.
2. This is in direct opposition to how the product is designed for retail, which in turn opens the need for customization off the retail base. 
3. As a result, any time you have an amount of extra work going in, there is potential to lose the consistency and feel from set to set...A pro's set used in September to October may be absolutely dialed in, but someone else at the factory assembled his October through November set and the feel is off.

I'd also be interested to hear how Vaughn sells at stores from the guys working retail...

@ULTIMA, @Puckstopper, @ZeroGravitas

 

Other comments

In response to your comment I bolded above - reminds me of how Brown disappeared from the league.  The gloves and pads fell off and he was only building C/As and pants, then gone from the league entirely.

Everything above was well said, there's not a lot I can add but seeing as this is a Lefebvre thread, I'm not gonna discuss other brands here in depth. I will say this.. a lot of little things dibilitate the Vaughn brand name which, unfortunately, is by their own fault. Other companies have better marketing. Vaughn pretty well only sells as good as the salesman pushes it.

[TheGoalNet]

1 hour ago, ULTIMA said:

Everything above was well said, there's not a lot I can add but seeing as this is a Lefebvre thread, I'm not gonna discuss other brands here in depth. I will say this.. a lot of little things dibilitate the Vaughn brand name which, unfortunately, is by their own fault. Other companies have better marketing. Vaughn pretty well only sells as good as the salesman pushes it.

Speaking to brand names, I bet the kids do not know of "Mike Vaughn" they know Vaughn. I look True buying Lefevre as an opportunity to revamp interest in the Lefevre history. Use some old images of Roy, Broduer in their mask, etc

[coopaloop1234]

27 minutes ago, TheGoalNet said:

Speaking to brand names, I bet the kids do not know of "Mike Vaughn" they know Vaughn. I look True buying Lefevre as an opportunity to revamp interest in the Lefevre history. Use some old images of Roy, Broduer in their mask, etc

I can already see the confusion on kid's faces when True tries to use them as advertising material.